BigHook Chat — Thursday, September 7, 2006

← Wednesday, September 6, 2006 | Friday, September 8, 2006 →

David I.
Morning all.
Sep 7
8:25 AM
David I.
Testing
Sep 7
8:30 AM
Joi I.
Goodmorning
Joi I.
spellchecking now working
Sep 7
8:45 AM
David I.
Pull quote: "This is my third T-shirt in 24 hours."
Sep 7
8:50 AM
Frank P.
Quick solution to Global Warming... http://listics.com/
Sep 7
8:55 AM
Cynic
TW Cable: How do we change our infrastructure to acommodate the huge coming bandwidth usage (e.g. video)?
steve k.
on Verizon - the only thing I dont particularly like about it is that they have hard-wired their network for 3 separate services (voice, video, data) rather than building a big fat (IP) pipe where they can flexibly adjust the mix of services as demand changes. given how much the world has changed in the past 5-10 years, I amd dumbfounded that someone would put in a 30-year asset with today's demand patterns hardwired into the design.
Kevin M.
there are multiple classes of 'video' that need to be considered
Kevin M.
Alexander Graham Bell lost money on an 'opera over the telephone' company
Cynic
Kevin, you going to have the ISPs cache the torrent files or something?
steve k.
in the meantime, the cable guys are doing all they can to introduce exactly that flexibility - in general the cable co's are the real innovators out there in terms of network design. Not well appreciated.
Kevin M.
that can work - bittorrent inc. have a model that does that
Rahul T.
DocSIS really helped the cable cos - standardize and volume, with new services...
Cynic
TWC: stop regulating k plz thx
Sep 7
9:00 AM
David I.
+1 to Steve. Verizon hit walls in their different attempts b/c the approach was poor, not b/c of lack of demand or opportunity in delivering broadband. You can't succeed if your offer the wrong product at the wrong price.
David I.
The Chicago Bulls!
Doc S.
A Verizon FiOS customer: http://www.redbanktv.org/
Kevin M.
http://earlyradiohistory.us/sec003.htm telco's doing content in the 1880s
steve k.
speaking of investing incremental dolars in an asset that needs to be replaced. "NASA managers have extended their hold on the space shuttle Atlantis' launch until at least Friday, due to a problem in the shuttle's electrical power system.
Doc S.
Can carriers let their consumers be producers?
Rahul T.
In the power industry, one problem became "incomplete" deregulation - lack of clarity = don't bother investing.
Sep 7
9:05 AM
Kevin M.
voice traffic is symmetric, so building asymmetry into new networks is an odd departure
Doc S.
What is the business in *helping* millions of producers distribute, and even collect revenue for, their music, video, writing and so on?
Rahul T.
So if advertising is a key issue in TV, isn't Google the new advertising king(?)
Doc S.
Yes. As in "king of the hill". New game, though.
Kevin M.
one way of looking at YouTube is an arbitrage around net asymmetry
Doc S.
just like napster was.
steve k.
Today: Sunny, with a high near 69. Calm wind becoming south between 4 and 7 mph. Friday: Mostly sunny, with a high near 70. West wind at 9 mph becoming south.
David B.
As Andrew mentioned yesterday, much of this "safety" issue is as much Microsoft as the net
steve k.
my mom is lobbying for a Mac because she's petrified of viruses
Kevin M.
bittorrent too - it is less efficient than a straight TCP transfer, but you have to bundle up the skinny uplinks for it to work
Tim D.
who's paying YouTube's bandwidth costs is the arbitrage gap - for now
Kevin M.
I switched my non-geek friends to Firefox and they thanked me profusely
Tim D.
(so they could capture the Youtube flash feeds??)
David I.
Reminder: Please click on the audio icon in the upper right corner of the chat to turn off the quiet bing of incoming messages.
Sep 7
9:10 AM
Kevin M.
so they no longre got so much malware and popup
Sep 7
9:10 AM
Robin C.
we got my parents-in-law Macs. After 6 months she was still having problems "finding" the print menu.
David B.
Lionel needs the "mom IVR robot" service
Tim D.
.... or by a mac :)
Steve S.
its a social architecture problem, compounded by the global nature of the internet and the ease of being anonymous and/or spoofing identity
steve k.
Firefox's market share is 13% - but that is all browsers. If you strip out corproate users (who are mostly exlores) firefox's residential share has gotta be pretty darn big. Gives me hope for innovation on the desktop again.
David I.
But is the goal of raising children to protect them or have them grow up?
Kevin M.
both
Robin C.
Re children: it is all about pacing and timing of that learning.
Doc S.
If the cat has kittens in the oven, does that make them bisquits?
Frank P.
Web 3.0 -- the stoplight business
steve k.
Rahul - but I dont think that explains why ConEd hadnt replaced 60 year old cables rather than just jerry rigging more crap to work around them.
David I.
+1 on people (and children) learning how to use the computer.
Steve S.
+2
Robin C.
my 7 year old son went to ass.com because a friend told him to. What he saw was shocked him and made him cry...not quite the same as looking the word up in the dictionary.
Steve S.
an "internet drivers license"
David I.
+3!
Kevin M.
The Red Flag law is the legislative solution...
Steve S.
with rfid chip that unlocks a reader on any internet connected device ...
Jim B.
Back to Doc's question about whether carriers can allow customers to be producers.... In Public Utility Regulatory Act of 1978, Congress required electric utilities to purchase -- at their avoided cost of production -- excess power generated by small producers of wind, solar, alcohol, and other sources of power.
Steve S.
maybe ...
Sep 7
9:15 AM
David I.
+1 on training, -1,000 on a "internet license". A license would be a bad thing(TM).
Kevin M.
no steve
David B.
Windows is still too hard, or harder than it should be
Steve S.
-1000?!?!. Ok, i was typing before thinking and you caught me.
Joi I.
I think licenses would be a mistake too
Doc S.
Good point Jim. Thanks.
Kevin M.
Animal Crossing is an example too
steve k.
On the user interface thing - Greg Elin made a great point in conversation ystrdy. As a developer, he can assume more and more consumer familiarity with web use conventions. So there is a developing vernacular out there - our parents just dont participate in that dialogue so they fall farther and farther behind as we take more and morefor granted about the user's ability to manage/understand a on-screen context
Steve S.
well, lets run one step further with the license analogy. You can drive without a license, but if you get caught you are fined. Now, odds are you don't get caught unless a) you violate a law, or b) get in an accident. If getting access to the internet needed you to take training, pass a test, get a paper "license" that could then be showed if say your computer is found to be a bot ... just musing out loud here, not really serious about the license thing
Kevin M.
View source
Kevin M.
that is a huge component of the web's success
David I.
+1 for not having to ask anyone's permission!
Sep 7
9:20 AM
Kevin M.
Food is private
Kevin M.
and it is pretty vital
Doc S.
My aunt, 94 years old and no techie, is all over the Net. Her line: "It was like learning to drive a stick shift."
Kevin M.
everyone can publish++
Frank P.
By declaring Net neutrality dead, we have allowed commercial interests to change the architecture of the Internet. That's a bad way to proceed. -- David Weinberger
Rahul T.
Food may be private but (1) it is regulated; (2) the private system leads to sometimes poor outcomes (e.g., too much sugars, transfats, etc.)
Sep 7
9:25 AM
Kevin M.
But state-run food kills people
Frank P.
Non-neutral networks aren't the Internet and they ought not be allowed to sell themselves to customers as providing Internet access. But this is a weak argument because it doesn't say that there's anything wrong with non-neutral networks. (Weak argument but a good consumer protection policy.) -- David Weinberger
steve k.
hear hear
David B.
korea was state-funded right?
Frank P.
genetically modified soybeans is an example of free market doing something by itself
Rahul T.
Korea is more complicated
Rahul T.
There were private companies, but who were pushed by the govt. - more importantly, the govt. helped get a big core going, and private companies like Hanaro pushed access
steve k.
in france, Iliad is offering 20 megabits of data, free voice calls, and 30 channels of video for $29 euros a month (about $45). They use France Telecom's last mile (which they got due to regulatory decree) but are offering massively more service using the same wires.
Rahul T.
BTW, email is rather broken in Korea, from what colleagues tell me
Joshua A.
Iliad service is made possible by a regulatory regime providing access to the copper
Frank P.
broken worldide Rahul
Joshua A.
Good for Iliad, bad for FT
Joshua A.
That's just a choice the state made
Frank P.
worldwide
David I.
I don't think there is an existance proof of any free-market activities existing outside of regulatory or governmental context. Private property is a *regulatory* construct and is enforced by regulatory activities.
Doc S.
What would happen if we deregulated the whole thing?
Sep 7
9:30 AM
David I.
Doc S.: What is "the whole thing"?
Rick W.
One potential solution is the return of open access -- multiple ISPs utilizing (and paying for) access to the underlying broadband networks.
Kevin M.
No, private property is an legislative encoding of pre-existing exchanges
Susan C.
Rick -- that's what I'd like to see, with no possibility of game-playing
steve k.
I was happy with time warner, but it was better than verizon.
Kevin M.
Greg, Mystery of Capital is a great book on this
Rahul T.
The copper was thus paid for by consumers under a regulatory environemnt - cablecos
David I.
Kevin M. Thanks!
Rahul T.
On this copper, with some electronics investment, the companies can offer broadband (similar to voice and DSL)
steve k.
only thing that worries me about the european model is that it is much more compettive than the us (and speeds are higher) but they are all using the same copper cables. Still have note figured out how to incentivze improvements to that last mile copper.
Rahul T.
The challenge is regulatory over affiliate transactions.
Steve S.
steve k. --- urban fiber projects?
Steve S.
amsterdam
Rahul T.
VoD is close to broadband in terms of technology - who should pay for that upgrade in infrastructure
Steve S.
etc
Joshua A.
Steve, that's a critical question -- how will fiber be deployed in France -- what will be the incentive?
steve k.
I wonder whether the US, with a true 2 pipe-into-the-home model, will end up with better physical plant over time.
David B.
the statement was "ARPU per bandwidth is better for net" right?
Rahul T.
Steve, is there anything WRONG with that, doing copper right until fiber makes sense (europe)?
Kevin M.
well, there was Jon Postel gatekeeping
Rick W.
There's always going to be game playing. But open access has the virtue of shifting the revenue opportunity to broadband network operators from attempting to collect tolls from the apps and content layers (That Which Cannot Be Said Today), to collecting renumeration from ISPs who actually use the networks. That way, broadband providers can be both Big Dumb Pipes and Big Smart Pipes.
Kevin M.
The RFCs are a kind of constitution
Sep 7
9:35 AM
David I.
Training + pollution control sounds better to me than Internet drivers license.
Susan C.
point is broadband providers should be as smart as they want -- as integrated as they want -- as long as they don't have the ability to discriminate in their own favor
Steve S.
come'on greg, it could have a cool hologram
Rahul T.
Steve, telcos say they will gradually (=lifespan) replace copper with fiber
David I.
Steve S.: Damn. I didn't think of the hologram. It be *really* cool. Like a bunch of points...connected!
Steve S.
now you're thinking!
Rahul T.
A paper that deals with the issue of utility (like road) models for connectivity across Africa (my rant): http://tinyurl.com/dttga
Rick W.
I agree Susan, and I think monitoring the tussle between physical and logical layers is more doable than the current legislative debates over tolls and gatekeepers affecting the upper layers.
Kevin M.
there are private location based systems like Plazes and Platial
Kevin M.
and dodgeball
steve k.
urban fiber projects are very appealing I think (discussing the same in paris). On what is wrong with not replacing the copper its not that we can't squeeze more bandwidth out of it, but you very quickly get to massive incremental investment for minimal return (like trying to make a model T relevant today - you could probably make one do 80 MPH on the freeway, add airbags, etc. but the incremental return on the dollars invested is poor). By the way, I am a big fan of plain old CAT5 copper (what runs your LAN) over fiber - my objection is over trying to wring more bits out of 30 year old twisted pair cables.
Kevin M.
all used by people in SF now
Doc S.
Rahul, is that also in html (and not just pdf) form?
Sep 7
9:40 AM
Kevin M.
who gets to track your location is key
Rick W.
Let the broadband providers' affiliated ISPs be as "non-neutral" as they want -- as long as there is ISP competition.
steve k.
on the cable side, the analogue is trying to squeeze more bandwidth out of one 6 Mhz channel rather than phasing out one incremental home shopping network.
David I.
Here's a flickr license:
David I.
Doc S.
Test hypothesis: What we got right: what wasn't regulated. What we got wrong: what was regulated.
Steve S.
cool, i want one of those. How about a wikipedia license too. I think we're onto something
Doc S.
Another hypothesis: Right: what wasn't already politicized. Wrong: what was already politicized.
Rahul T.
Cable has enough B/W available for several 6 MHz channels for data (they use different for upstream and down). Push comes to shove, not only can they "lose" a few video channels, they can modify amps to get a whole new band for data
David I.
And...sidebar...this is why Web 2.0 is not hype. Web services APIs plus other new tools plus people contributing massive data are allowing the application layer to expand rapidly and less expensively. Look at what this guy has created on his on top of Flickr. http://flagrantdisregard.com/flickr/
David I.
Joi is right on!
Steve S.
I was talking with Amy last night. One of the tussles in her project is the one she's just talking about. Some forces want anonymous login onto the SF wireless net, other forces want to force a registration / authentication process (e.g. enter an email, click on a registration link).
steve k.
maybe google should re-introduce a walled garden - All the talk around keping kis safe suggests huge latent demand but people are not connecting that to AOL anymore? Or is it because we are so used to free services that people are not willing to pay $5 a month to keep their kids safe on the net?
Doc S.
In Santa Barbara in 2001, they cut moved Internet delivery to lower frequencies to make room for more digital cable channels. To their credit, they have since (in 2006) raised data rates to pre-2001 levels and up.
Sep 7
9:45 AM
scott o.
what was that book name & author?
scott o.
the trust book
steve k.
I wonder if the problem has less to do with what is economically in the best intersts of the cable co's and more that the internal political weight of the video guys and their customers is greater than those weirdo data guys? I dunno - just musing
Steve S.
The Problem of Trust, Seligman
scott o.
tnx
Susan C.
greater social value vs. value to particular incumbent providers
David I.
These tools are *very* powerful. A site was recently removed from an ISP that explained how to use Google Earth to calculate bombing trajectories.
Doc S.
steve k.
best way to prevent car accidents? mount a big, very sharp spike on the steering wheel pointing directly at the driver's chest. people woulddrive slow.
David I.
The figure is 40,000 deaths per year from car accidents and 2.3 million debilitating injuries.
Doc S.
J.P. Rangaswami on Martin Geddes and Adam Seligman: http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2006/06/06/f…
David I.
(I had to go to traffic school at the start of this week.)
Kevin M.
wasn't JP supposed to be here
Sep 7
9:50 AM
Doc S.
couldn't make it
Joshua A.
Isn't it more like 35,000 deaths a year now, due to airbags and a few other changes?
Rahul T.
Car lesson: Q (answer below): Which had a higher fuel efficiency and which cost more as a fraction of income: typical car today or 1920s Model-T Ford?
Steve S.
That's two questions
Rahul T.
[from a forthcoming paper on ICT]: Answer: they’re both comparable (a late 1920s model T achieved about 25 miles per gallon, and cost $290, then about a third of average income). But surely cars today are different, are better? In terms of safety, environmental impact, acceleration, creature comforts, etc., absolutely. This underscores the fact that technology is a moving target, with ever increasing feature sets and requirements.
Rahul T.
Deaths are lower than 50K now (perhaps down to 33K last I saw)
Robin C.
Re tracking where driver's have been, we don't HAVE to do this. We choose to do this. There are methods to have people pay per specific mile they drive, and still protect their locational privacy. See my paper, co-authored
Robin C.
Sep 7
9:55 AM
Joi I.
I've seen groups work with "clean sheets of paper" and it does not guarantee that the result will be "clean"
scott o.
wifi is everywhere but where is the business model for this everywhere wifi?
Joi I.
Wasn't SET written on a clean sheet of paper?
Frank P.
nationalized industries... a concept whose time has come?
Kevin M.
clean sheets of paper are bad
Kevin M.
that is the key microformats insight
scott o.
SET as in the banking settlement protocol?
Sep 7
10:35 AM
Clegg I.
Ferocious Biting Action!!!!!
kc c.
steve k.
joi - great comment. I think the cean sheet of paper is much less important than a gun to the head - preferably multiple guns held by multiple players.
Sep 7
10:40 AM
kc c. 
  Subject: [BigHook2006] Re: Bob Dylan
  To: bighook2006@isen.com,

  Workingman's Blues #2 by Bob Dylan
  There's an evenin' haze settlin' over town
  Starlight by the edge of the creek
  The buyin' power of the proletariat's gone down
  Money's gettin' shallow and weak
  Well, the place I love best is a sweet memory
  It's a new path that we trod
  They say low wages are a reality
  If we want to compete abroad

  My cruel weapons have been put on the shelf
  Come sit down on my knee
  You are dearer to me than myself
  As you yourself can see
  While I'm listening to the steel rails hum
  Got both eyes tight shut
  Just sitting here trying to keep the hunger from
  Creeping it's way into my gut

  Chorus:
  Meet me at the bottom, don't lag behind
  Bring me my boots and shoes
  You can hang back or fight your best on the frontline
  Sing a little bit of these workingman's blues

  Well, I'm sailin' on back, ready for the long haul
  Tossed by the winds and the seas
  I'll drag 'em all down to hell and I'll stand 'em at the wall
  I'll sell 'em to their enemies
  I'm tryin' to feed my soul with thought
  Gonna sleep off the rest of the day
  Sometimes no one wants what we got
  Sometimes you can't give it away

  Now the place is ringed with countless foes
  Some of them may be deaf and dumb
  No man, no woman knows
  The hour that sorrow will come
  In the dark I hear the night birds call
  I can feel a lover's breath
  I sleep in the kitchen with my feet in the hall
  Sleep is like a temporary death

  (chorus)

  Well, they burned my barn, and they stole my horse
  I can't save a dime
  I got to be careful, I don't want to be forced
  Into a life of continual crime
  I can see for myself that the sun is sinking
  How I wish you were here to see
  Tell me now, am I wrong in thinking
  That you have forgotten me?

  Now they worry and they hurry and they fuss and they fret
  They waste your nights and days
  Them I will forget
  But you I'll remember always
  Old memories of you to me have clung
  You've wounded me with your words
  Gonna have to straighten out your tongue
  It's all true, everything you've heard

  (chorus)

  In you, my friend, I find no blame
  Wanna look in my eyes, please do
  No one can ever claim
  That I took up arms against you
  All across the peaceful sacred fields
  They will lay you low
  They'll break your horns and slash you with steel
  I say it so it must be so

  Now I'm down on my luck and I'm black and blue
  Gonna give you another chance
  I'm all alone and I'm expecting you
  To lead me off in a cheerful dance
  I got a brand new suit and a brand new wife
  I can live on rice and beans
  Some people never worked a day in their life
  Don't know what work even means

  (chorus)


  Words and music by Bob Dylan
  Copyright 2006 Special Rider Music
Rahul T. 
Toronto's wifi - by the elec company (left unsaid was the push by smart metering needs):
http://www.unstrung.com/document.asp?doc_id=103038&WT.svl=news2_4
Sep 7
10:45 AM
Robin C.
is Dylan getting more than 3 minute?
Rick W.
And he never mentioned "The Phrase That Cannot Be Spoken."
Jim B. 
Workingman's Blues #2 by Bob Dylan

There's an evenin' haze settlin' over town Starlight by the edge of the creek The buyin'
power of the proletariat's gone down Money's gettin' shallow and weak Well, the place I
love best is a sweet memory It's a new path that we trod They say low wages are a reality
If we want to compete abroad

My cruel weapons have been put on the shelf Come sit down on my knee You are dearer to me
than myself As you yourself can see While I'm listening to the steel rails hum Got both
eyes tight shut Just sitting here trying to keep the hunger from Creeping it's way into my
gut

Chorus:
Meet me at the bottom, don't lag behind
Bring me my boots and shoes
You can hang back or fight your best on the frontline 
Sing a little bit of these workingman's blues

Well, I'm sailin' on back, ready for the long haul Tossed by the winds and the seas I'll
drag 'em all down to hell and I'll stand 'em at the wall I'll sell 'em to their enemies
I'm tryin' to feed my soul with thought Gonna sleep off the rest of the day Sometimes no
one wants what we got Sometimes you can't give it away

Now the place is ringed with countless foes Some of them may be deaf and dumb No man, no
woman knows The hour that sorrow will come In the dark I hear the night birds call I can
feel a lover's breath I sleep in the kitchen with my feet in the hall Sleep is like a
temporary death

(chorus)

Well, they burned my barn, and they stole my horse I can't save a dime I got to be
careful, I don't want to be forced Into a life of continual crime I can see for myself
that the sun is sinking How I wish you were here to see Tell me now, am I wrong in
thinking That you have forgotten me?

Now they worry and they hurry and they fuss and they fret They waste your nights and days
Them I will forget But you I'll remember always Old memories of you to me have clung
You've wounded me with your words Gonna have to straighten out your tongue It's all true,
everything you've heard

(chorus)

In you, my friend, I find no blame
Wanna look in my eyes, please do
No one can ever claim
That I took up arms against you
All across the peaceful sacred fields
They will lay you low
They'll break your horns and slash you with steel I say it so it must be so

Now I'm down on my luck and I'm black and blue Gonna give you another chance I'm all alone
and I'm expecting you To lead me off in a cheerful dance I got a brand new suit and a
brand new wife I can live on rice and beans Some people never worked a day in their life
Don't know what work even means

(chorus)


Words and music by Bob Dylan
Copyright 2006 Special Rider Music
David B.
My wife does an hilarious Dylan
Sep 7
10:50 AM
kc c.
hmm:
kc c. 
  By Jeffrey Silva
  Sep 6, 2006
  WASHINGTON?Verizon Wireless is pitching a plan to build a nationwide
  broadband public-safety network in the 700 MHz band, according to
  sources familiar with the plan. The spectrum has already been allocated
  to public safety as part of the transition to digital TV.

  The Verizon Wireless plan envisions using 12 of the 24 megahertz set
  aside for public safety to build a nationwide public-safety broadband
  network. Verizon Wireless would augment its existing infrastructure as
  necessary to give public-safety the coverage it needs and then would
  extract rent from public-safety agencies across the country to use that
  infrastructure. The spectrum, however, would not be shared with Verizon
  Wireless? commercial customers.

  Verizon Wireless has met with top public-safety officials including the
  Association of Public-safety Communications Officials, according to the
  sources.
kc c.
wonders if that plan is going up for competitive bid, perhaps the FOSS
kc c.
community could do it more cost-effectively?
Kevin M.
Commodities don't lead to bankruptcy inherently
Kevin M.
That is an abuse of the term commodity
Sep 7
10:55 AM
David I.
Kevin M.
Rahul T.
power systems already face this issue of fixed vs. marginal costs - competitive power systems with excess capacity (under normal conditions) have low prices - no signals to invest in new capacity. BITS have very low marginal cost
David B.
Many have probably already seen this, but concludes that "dumb pipes" make better money than "pipes plus apps": http://blogs.nmss.com/communications/2006/…
Rahul T.
bond vs. equity - ancient CAP-M issue (modigliani-miller). Different risk profiles, in theory!
Sep 7
11:00 AM
Rahul T.
in some countries, the (outdated) mental model is "retained earnings", which is equiv. to a cross-subsidy model (Long-Distance vs. Local. vs. Intl. gateway, etc.)
Rahul T.
Q: Airlines face huge embedded costs from benefits (retirement/health) - do the telcos face similar costs that upstarts don't face?
Sep 7
11:05 AM
David I.
Chat URL is bighook.campfirenow.com
David I.
The chat link was a one time link to create your account.
David I.
bighook.campfirenow.com
David I.
(Email greg@fotonote.net if you are having problem.)
Doc S.
"Information doesn't want to be free. Information wants to be $6.95." - Don Marti
Sep 7
11:10 AM
Rahul T.
Every telecom paper/presentation I see says capital is not the big individual cost, operations is. Is that really true/intellectually honest? Or, do long amortization horizons that don't match reality mask capex?
Kevin M.
telecoms like complex operations because of cost plus, according to someone yesterday
Rahul T.
aaaah, costs-plus. Quote from a power utility CEO: I'm in the only business where I can get a higher return by buying a piece of office furniture.
Sep 7
11:20 AM
Emy
has entered the room
Emy 
Wireless Silicon Valley Picks Provider
By Eric Griffith 
September 6, 2006 

Metro Connect, a consortium made up of Cisco Systems, IBM, Azulstar and community-centric
SeaKay, has been picked to run the Wireless Silicon Valley Initiative's network.
Emy
Doc S.
The movie business is still the snack business. A walled garden for sweet and salty things.
Kevin M.
McDonalds margins are much bigger on the drinks than the food
Doc S.
Which is the bigger commodity... sweet drinks or hamburgers?
Clegg I.
my favorite indie theater in Orlando (http://www.enzian.org/) serves dinner, wine, etc. during the movie...it is terribly mediocre as a restaurant, but an enjoyable experience
Sep 7
11:25 AM
Kevin M.
whereas the Foreign Cinema restaurant in San Francisco charges for great food, and projects old films on the walls during dinner...
steve k.
fyi, roughly 60% of McDonad's profits are from sales of Coke products and 30% from french fries. They lose money on hamburgers. Not sure about the the toerh 10%.
Sep 7
11:30 AM
Emy
"the project (Wireless Silicon Valley) will cost between $75 to $250 million dollars, most of which is likely to come out of Cisco's and IBM's pockets"
Don J.
I don't have a problem with a broadband provider asking its users to pay for increased performance that will result from new capital investment. The problem I have is when these broadband providers want to shake down the companies that their customers are browsing to (eg google and ebay).
scott o.
same problem I have but its less about shaking down google but the woory about how the next google will get deployed
Don J.
The other problem I have is when broadband providers block applications they don't like. SMTP on the right port, VPN access to my provider, the ability to run a server in my home, or to block something like bittorrent or skype.
Don J.
Oops, I meant VPN access to my employer
scott o.
is a blocked pipe "the internet"?
Don J.
Not in my opinion, and I support efforts to ban providers from selling "Internet" when then are not providing "Internet".
Don J.
Ban then from claiming they are selling Internet...
scott o.
ken Cukier proposed a "Internet" trademak where the services (e.g. open pipe unless the user asks for someting different) were defined - you could not advertize that you offered the Internet if you did not offer all teh services
Doc S.
Am I wrong or are most of us using Moore's Law to advantage on computers that run only on his old company's chips?
Don J.
Internet trademark a good idea
scott o.
not me (yet)
Sep 7
11:35 AM
Rick W.
You can also make a case at the Federal Trade Commisison that the broadband provider offering a flawed form of "Internet access" is engaging in false advertising and should be penalized.
Kevin M.
We can fill the pipes with video easily enough...
scott o.
getting the FTC to do something here is not something I'd like to hold my breath for
steve k.
What I see is consistent market failure by the people running these networks who don't seem to understand their own economics s they fail to optimize. My favorite example is that wireless networks are unwilling to sell their data services on a variable price basis. So every night between say midnight and 5 AM, huge amonts of bandwidth that could be sold (admittedly at a very low price) goes unsold because the guys running the networks are simply unwilling to offer anyone easy, low-cost access that capacity. Its like refusing to sell empty airline seats becase you arent wilig to open a ticket ofice except if they are sold in downtown locations during regular office hours.
Martin G.
Rick W.
Perhaps, but probably better than a trademark on The Internet.
Kevin M.
http://www.dpsproject.com/legislation.html - theis is an 'internet trademark' type proposal
steve k.
I guess that encapsulates my problem with bundled offerings. I have no problem with confusing customers about the underlying costs, but I think it confuses the COMPANIES about where they are really making money and/or were they could make more. It is really ard to make economically efficient decisios if you don't understand you own economics aren't clear
Sep 7
11:40 AM
Susan C.
why is there unwillingness to do usage-based pricing? (not discriminating based on service or customer)
Don J.
I don't have a problem with providers offering bundles of services. But as monopoly/duopoly providers, I want the option to buy the base broadband service without the other stuff, and it should be cheaper to buy the base service than the bundle.
Kevin M.
with power law distributions you do have a big majority above average
Kevin M.
Susan: Andrew has written on that - people will pay more for predictability
Susan C.
but not for electricity
steve k.
Ssan - one reason is that the cost of billing is too high - why the Singapore telco has gone to quarterly flat price billing.
Susan C.
not convinced cost of billing is that high (done right) (without the existing staff)
Kevin M.
They will choose a flat monthly fee over a usage-based one fro 2 reasons: predictability; and not having the mental transaction cost of keeping track
Kevin M.
Cellphones can track each call, but sell monthly bundle packages
Doc S.
Recalling Marx (not Marks, but he's alive and in the room), the workers now own the means of production. So, a question... What *opportunities* are available for Level 1-3 incumbents who find themselves *enabling* and supporting millions of producers who used to just be consumers? Including: helping them make money. Are there not businesses there? Do not those businesses beg development of more any-mile capacity, even if it's pure commodity stuff?
Sep 7
11:45 AM
Doc S.
Thought... maybe those billing systems laying around as giant sunk costs could be repurposed to help a zillion customers make money, rather than just the telco.
steve k.
Doc S? Welfare for billing systems - maybe we just buy them out?
Kevin M.
average is a key misunderstanding
Kevin M.
it's not normally distributed
Robin C.
fixed vs usage-based pricing is very interesting. In these networks, we have a perishable commodity that also has capacity constraints. This complicates the "real" pricing. It is use it or lose it during low demand times, but very real constraints during peak times...electricity is a good parallel and there is movement to start charging people for time/use.
Don J.
the workers may own the means of production, but they don't own the distribution network they need to access the marketplace.
Kevin M.
but you don't get the Christensen effect so easily
Doc S.
that's an option. My point is that much more money is there to be made *because* of bandwidth than *with* bandwidth. And that there are potential advantages to incumbency other than scarcity plays with capacity.
Kevin M.
fortunately they don't need to own it
Doc S.
I've heard that the average Apple store has bigger revenues, and higher profits, than the average Nordstrom.
Doc S.
Microsoft became a legal department travelling as a software company. This will be remembered as the biggest tragedy of the federal lawsuit.
Sep 7
11:50 AM
steve k.
Build a nice big housig development for former telco billng and marketig people? Actually, I bet you could Or just shift their salareis onto the public payroll and just don't tell them they arent actually running a real network anymore. They could go to the same sterile offices and hold the same sterile meetings and generate the same endless chains of CC'd emails - we just have to cut their (already tenuous)links to the actual networks that pay their salaries. It would prbably take them years to figure out the levers they were randomly puling in the network are no longer connected to anything.
Eric C.
Greg - what's your new host's URL?
Doc S.
What would happen if carrier execs were forced to use the term "producer" instead of "consumer" when talking about customers?
Kevin M.
Doc, re owning means of production: http://epeus.blogspot.com/2006_04_01_epeus…
Sep 7
11:55 AM
Doc S.
Great post, Kevin. Just looked for more, found "The World Wide Web's strange new economy is where Adam Smith and Karl Marx finally meet. For Smith the Internet provides a "simple system of natural liberty [that] establishes itself of its own accord," and for Marx it finally puts the means of production in the hands of the workers. In other words, it achieves the irony of capital-free capitalism: enterprise so free that it requires almost zero capital to start and run a new business." ... from 1995: http://www.searls.com/marcom.html
Kevin M.
looming threat was andy groves way of making intel work
Doc S.
Now, what are the benefits of incumbency to *already having* customers (not just "consumers") who are in business, and producing, all kinds of stuff, and could use some help?
Doc S.
Another angle. What if we think of the carriers as advantaged edgelings, and not just as dinosaurs in the middle?
Rahul T.
Other "paradox" - A single fiber (pair) can do everything a consumer needs - how do we realistically do competition? 3 Fibers to a home? Don't think so. Structural separation???
Doc S.
Would the world be a better place if Dish and DirecTV were one? Not sure.
Rahul T.
Or, is fiber another facility to compete with cable and twisted pair?
Kevin M.
Satellite has a huge inherent asymmetry problem
Doc S.
Yes. to both Rahul and Kev.
Kevin M.
everyone else has asymmetry problems of their own making
Rahul T.
In the rest of the world, we don't have the existing copper that the US has - Africa has more than 10x mobiles than landlines
Rahul T.
well, mobiles are poorly measured but still
Sep 7
12:00 PM
Kevin M.
also, geostationery satellite lag really sucks
David B.
Kevin, I thought you said latency didn't matter :)
Doc S.
Geostationary ping times run .5 to 1.x seconds.
scott o.
keven - yes but it does actually does work
Kevin M.
I said latency sometimes matters
Kevin M.
it doesn't matter for one-way TV
Kevin M.
in 1996 when Astra put up their 2-way transponders we worked with them on trying to find applications that could use a multicast to the whole of europe
Eric C.
so I guess no 'bighook2006' flickr tags... sigh
Kevin M.
couldn't really come up with many good ones
Kevin M.
hm, would geocoding on flickr cause information leakage?
Sep 7
12:05 PM
David I.
BTW: Greg's hosting company: http://rimuhosting.com/
Sep 7
12:10 PM
David I.
Break for lunch....
Sep 7
12:15 PM
Don J.
other links for trademarking "Internet": http://web.archive.org/web/20021121194050/…
Sep 7
1:15 PM
David B.
Everyone else probably knows this, but... rumor is we're meeting outside for the next session
Sep 7
1:25 PM
David I.
Yes, that's right, we're meeting outside, down towards the point. Sunscreen and a few hats will be available.
David I.
Also, it is not clear whether the wifi signal will reach down there . . .
Sep 7
2:25 PM
Doc S.
It does.
Sep 7
3:00 PM
Doc S.
Are we going back in?
Doc S.
I'm the only one out here with a laptop. Sure this isn't Digital Hollywood?
Sep 7
3:05 PM
Kevin M.
analog hollywood
Sep 7
3:10 PM
Kevin M.
we should do digital bollywood instead
Sep 7
3:35 PM
scott o.
ping
Frank P.
pong
Doc S.
Seriously, what makes you think that people who write laws, or staffers who are smart..., are ...
Doc S.
the process is incremental, and by its nature is that...
Doc S.
(transcribing robert here...)
Lionel G.
.
Sep 7
3:40 PM
Doc S.
they tend to be backward-looking, and make linear projections into the future based on that...
Doc S.
what kind of new internet do we want to see legislated?
Doc S.
we don't want that.
Doc S.
Myself again: agreed.
Eric C.
"It's a series of tubes."
Doc S.
The legislative enviornment, then, was fortuitous unintended consequences. Or allowances?
Frank P.
voice voice voice
Frank P.
"subsidize companies and not people" ... what does that mean, I mean it sounds good...
Sep 7
3:45 PM
Don J.
FCC rulings on E911 and CALEA are highly intrusive and at odds with how the Internet was designed and implemented. So, no, I am not excited about regulation, but it seems to happen if I want it or not.
Sep 7
3:45 PM
Don J.
I still beleive that first mile access is a scarce resource, and we seem to need regulation/legislation in this area.
Rahul T.
BT was also not allowed to go next gen until "regular" broadband penetrated deep - helped push DSL
Don J.
The numbering plan (NANP), and interconnection rights are other areas where regulation is important
scott o.
nanp is a private company
David I.
There are some modifications to patent law that would help building the network.
Don J.
I thought the NANP contracts with a private company to administer it, but that NANP itself was a governmental function (spans multiple goverments, as NANP is not just USA). But maybe I am in error, if so, please explain to me later.
Doc S.
In respect to Robert's point about incrementalism and backward-lookingness, I'd like to see a build-down of existing regulations, rather than new ones.
Don J.
Neustar is the company that is paid to administer NANP....
Sep 7
3:50 PM
Doc S.
To Don J: Much of the first mile muni and local progress being made now is in the absence of regulation. Meanwhile, some of the carriers are lobbying through legislation at the state level to restrict opportunity there.
kc c.
has entered the room
scott o.
yes NANP is not just the US (its US, territories, Canada & Caribbean)
Don J.
And opponents of muni networks are also working at the federal level to restrict. Didn't Jim Baller argue a case at the Supreme Court on this?
scott o.
from the NANP web site
scott o. 
"Regulatory authorities in each participating country have plenary
authority over numbering resources, but the participating countries share numbering
resources cooperatively.

AT&T developed the North American Numbering Plan in 1947 to simplify and facilitate
direct dialing of long distance calls. Implementation of the plan began in
1951."
Robin C.
is lack of first mile due to lack of cheap wholesale bandwidth? That was conclusion of Boston. If the first mile person has to make an investment in building the entire network, that sure cuts out the number of people who can play.
Sep 7
3:55 PM
Rahul T.
Isn't the next big fight with e-NUM? Scott?
Cynic
has entered the room
Kevin M.
performance-based standards can be manipulated by incumbents to lock out competitors (lunch conversation about IMS)
scott o.
the Supreme Court case was over a detail in the law - did the law block teh ability of a state to block muli nets - the court said 'no the law does not block the states' - it did not rule on the muli nets themselves
scott o.
public enum is dead
scott o.
public enum is where your phone number is in a data base that can be accessed by the enum protococol - (enum maps phone numbers into URLs using the domain name system)
David B.
There is a "grass roots" enum at http://www.e164.org/
scott o.
it is dead because it has to be opt-in and that will never happen with enough customers to make it worthwhile
Sep 7
4:00 PM
scott o.
private enum - where the data is only accessable by the phone companies - is growing quite well because you and my data gets stuck in there without our OK - private enum is used by phone companies to route phone calls over public and private IP nets
Don J.
I beleive issues in first mile are about rights of way, and how to pay for the buildout and maintenance of the network. The duopoly seems to feel that they have paid for the buildout of their existing networks, so they get to control what goes over it. There are at least two solutions to this problem: 1) try to force them via legislation/regulation to be open, or 2) build a "customer owned" network that is. Local government is one way to organize the "customers" of such a network.
Rahul T.
yes, scott. public enum languished...
Rahul T.
thanks
scott o.
"languished" :-)
Doc S.
agreed, Don.
Don J.
I am also very pessimistic about public enum :-(
David B.
Don, where there is pessimism, there's opportunity! ;-)
scott o.
what part of dead didn't you understand? :-)
Sep 7
4:05 PM
David B.
enum not happening can be create opportunity
Doc S.
Important: consumers are becoming producers. This should be an opportunity in lots of ways.
Doc S.
Thought: who's a digital photography "consumer" any more? We
Doc S.
're producers now.
Don J.
Is it getting warm in here? Or is it just me....
scott o.
its more than just you
Frank P.
would it be reasonable to set as a goal for my children's net to provide every person in the country superior bandwidth wherever they may be, wherever they may travel?
Kevin M.
I'd phrase it differently, doc - they aren'r consumers they are hobbyists
Rahul T.
Frank, it's not the network per se but also computing systems that need to improve - I want MY data/information available (yet, secure) anywhere I am
Frank P.
yes... available on a network that makes use of that data transparent to location
Sep 7
4:10 PM
Kevin M.
the switching costs are the pain of talking to customer service
Frank P.
like switching providers?
Clegg I.
this is a slippery slope
Clegg I.
problem
Doc S.
But the old producer (Kokak, Fuji)- dominated photography market is supplanted by one for different goods and services, a large percentage of which is provided by individuals who only used to consume. The sum of photographs up on Ofoto, Flickr, and so on is enormous. Those pictures in years past ended up in drawers and in albums on shelves. They are now part of the producer side of the market ecosystem.
Doc S.
That the producers are hobbyists does not mean they don't produce.
Kevin M.
rahul: USB drive?
Kevin M.
I agree, but their role is different
Kevin M.
they aren't producing for sale, they are producing for fun
Eric C.
anytime I hear from somebody using an @isp email address I send 'em a Gmail invite...
Kevin M.
this should be a positive for the networks as they are less likely to be price sensitive about hobbies
Doc S.
What's more, they want faster upload speeds. The produder/consumer market asymmetries that gave us ADSL and DOCSIS no longer prevail. Cableco and Telco broadband customers fill the "consumer" role less and less exclusively than they once did.
Kevin M.
yes, exactly
Rahul T.
Sure on the USB... But I can lose it; phones don't work easily/well with USB drives, many kiosks/cafes don't let me stick something in, etc...
Kevin M.
Net Symmetry
Doc S.
Unintended consequence of the federal suit against Microsoft: a vast legal department that now travels as a software company.
Kevin M.
Amazon S3?
Frank P.
articulate principles, not engineering details
Susan C.
auerbach is right about this
Sep 7
4:15 PM
Doc S.
A market consequence of reality: Microsoft is increasingly friendly and accomodating to open source use by its customers and development by its partners. No legislation required.
Sep 7
4:15 PM
Frank P.
I think he's being a little myopic
Susan C.
you could write out structural separation, but technical mandates are very difficult
Frank P.
chaos r us
Kevin M.
and in fact the web platform did make big inroads against the windows API
scott o.
Don J.
The very very nice thing about the email "network" is that we as individuals can choose to join as individuals, and "peer" with all the rest of the system. Cost to do so is very low. PC + Linux can easily do this. The fact that most people chose to get their email account and address from their ISP is their choice. They are making a choice as a consumer, and they are free to do it another way. The problem I have with the telephone network, and the FCC's regulation of it, is that I as an individual cannot join the telephone system, I MUST be a subscriber of a carrier. I can't get a phone number as an individual, and I have no interconnection rights. Phone numbers should be obtainable just like DNS domain names are, and all (US) telephone carriers should be required to interconnect over the public Internet using a standard open protocol (SIP)
Sep 7
4:20 PM
Frank P.
POLICY FORMATION is our responsibility. Phone number provisioning and DNS allocation may well be matters of public policy executed in the private sector. But the key is that we are shying away from POLICY FORMATION discussions.
Kevin M.
monopoly by royal charter is what the copyright/patent system represents
Frank P.
your point?
Rahul T.
patents/copyright were created to foster innovation
Kevin M.
that isn't a good model - agreeing with the speaker
Rahul T.
One problem is modern innovation often builds upon other work (we have less "Eureka" new discoveries than before)
Kevin M.
letters patent were a monopoly of trade
Frank P.
so the PUBLIC POLICY rising out of that would be?
Kevin M.
copyright was created to limit publishers using dominance of printing presses against authors
kc c.
donj: very few individuals can gain ownership of a chunk of IP addresses (and so far getting IPv6 addresses from ARIN is even harder since they can't even agree on address allocation policy for these addresses.), so it is only different from telco world in degree (literally, of nodes in the network, and of layers of aggregation of control), not in kind.
Sep 7
4:25 PM
Rahul T.
actually, against the crown, Kevin - there were authorized presses in the UK
Kevin M.
David B.
YES! There is no THIRD PIPE (in the US)!!!!
Kevin M.
"Whereas printers, booksellers, and other persons have of late frequently taken the liberty of printing, reprinting, and publishing, or causing to be printed, reprinted, and published, books and other writings, without the consent of the authors..."
Clegg I.
does Trinko limit our ability to resort to antitrust remedies in the Telecom context?
Frank P.
so NOT the Statute of Anne would be the articulation of the PUBLIC POLICY?
Doc S.
I suggest "Valdemort" as a synonym for That Which Cannot Be Spoken here.
David I.
I'm finding parts of this conversation frustrating. Telcos have gotten *much* of what they wanted from legislation and regulations and yet they did not deliver on their promises. Is that not the case?
scott o.
re v6 from arin - not all that hard - 27K /24 equivs allocated in July - see http://www.arin.net/statistics/index.html - easier soon for end sites
steve k.
heck, there isnt even a second (physical) pipe in europe
Rahul T.
Yup - statute of ann
Don J.
KC: Understood. I don't need my own ARIN IP address space to be my own phone company, I just need a static IP address from my ISP, which is not that hard to arrange. I think IP address allocation is totally FUBAR. BTW, I have my own Class C, and it is always a challenge to find an ISP that will let me use it, but they are out there, and I use them. I have to pay for the privledge
Kevin M.
kc - we can get IP addresses from hosting providers, and we can get domains
Rahul T.
They were really publishing stuff the crown didn't want them publishing...(early 1700s)
Frank P.
scott o.
David B.
Right on, Rick W. ;-)
Frank P.
my link too
Sep 7
4:30 PM
kc c.
for both IP addresses and domains, you have just put a middle man (or two) and some governance (but we're not allowed to call it that) in between you and the steward of the resource. but underneath the turtles, there is centralized authority over both resources in today's Internet.
scott o.
icann is the bottom turtle?
Kevin M.
well, there is the equivalent of a land registry in them, with intermediaries who trade in them
Kevin M.
do we have an icann quorum in this room?
Sep 7
4:35 PM
Susan C.
i'd say we have a critical group of people but not critical mass
scott o.
quorum for or against or ???
David B.
hypothosis: so we can route around many things, but we cannot route around ARIN and ICANN (although I suppose NAT is in part a way to route around ARIN)
Don J.
I am relatively happy with how domain names are managed, perhaps I am the only one. I can sign up for a domain name for about $10/year. If I want a domain name someone has already registered, it is legal and OK for me to buy it from the current owner. There may be other problems with the system, but it works fine for me.
Rahul T.
Is the fact TW or anyone else hasn't done anything violating NN because they'd get smacked in the market or becuase they haven't been able to figure out where/how to do something different that would push the envelope on NN?
Susan C.
we have no idea what they're doing. no data.
David B.
Rahul, or that they haven't been threatened yet?
scott o.
at that level (most users and businesses) the DNS environment is quite good - lots of details are f**ed up but not so bad that the system stops worked
Frank P.
enforcementg of what?
Steve S.
Hey, is saying NN in the chat ok?!?! Doh, I just did it myself.
Don J.
IP addresses are not nearly as well administered as domain names. It is apparently not kosher for me to buy an existing portable Class C from its registred owner, and the whole ARIN process is very expensive and painful for a small fish to navigate to get addresses
Rick W.
There is also pending federal legislation hanging over the incumbents' heads, and they don't want to upset the apple cart until Congress goes out for the year.
Frank P.
I said it twic e this morning but I was quoting David W. so he owes the $40
Kevin M.
right, but as you can repoint your DNS freely, they are much more commoditized
scott o.
if you can explain how the routing system could work with selling IP addresses not tied into network topologty then go to it
Susan C.
almost anything can happen in the name of "network management"
Sep 7
4:40 PM
kc c.
icann, or DOC (stomach of bottom turtle, mostly hidden from view). i am in no way suggesting we have a discussion about icann, i just think it's dangerous to act like the Internet policy structure offers so much more choice because it has such a different governance structure than the telco world.
Kevin M.
dynamic dns lets you change IP address for a domain rapidly
scott o.
also - why does it matter what IP address you are using? unless you are selling porn you do not tell people your IP address you tell people a DNS name and the DNS mapps it into an IP address that works at the time and changed tomorrow
Rick W.
Blocking all P2P traffic is a viable network management tool, and in the pubic interest, isn't it?
Joshua A.
For a while, T-Mobile was offering a $5.99/month data product that allowed port 80 only, and a $19.99 product that allowed traffic on all ports. I bought the $5.99 product.
Joshua A.
Do people feel that cheaper product shouldn't be allowed?
Joshua A.
Or just not called "Internet"?
Don J.
Chairman Powell put the smack down on a cable company that was blocking Vonage. But there is apparently no law or regulation prohibiting what the cable company did, so if they or another does it again, Vonage and its customers are at the mercy of the current FCC chairman, who may not be as outraged as Powell apparently was. This is thin ice to live on. That is why we have laws, so we don't need to depend on ad-hoc enforcement by the king.
scott o.
don't call it Internet
Kevin M.
did they call it "web-only" ?
Joshua A.
i think so
scott o.
there a lot of details in the Madson River case (the vonage blocking case) that means that it does not mean anything
Kevin M.
well, with NAT, who knows what port you're on...
Kevin M.
the joy of tunnelling...
steve k.
NB - you can make a good argument that the antitrust case against MSFT has worked. Not necessarily by "winning" but so gumming the company up in lawyers and what you can or can't do that its ability to innovate is deeply impaired. Same thing happened to IBM after their anti-trust case.
Rick W.
The FCC has declaimed any common carriage-type jurisdiction over the activities of broadband Internet access providers. Even if they want to atempt regulation under "Title I" authority, it's unclear that the law is on their side.
Tim D.
Cable has no guaranteed rate of return..... just FYI
Joshua A.
steve -- true enough, every conversation that have seems to be vetted by a dozen lawyers
Kevin M.
well, the goal of their antitrust violations was to limit innovation
Sep 7
4:45 PM
steve k.
Don J - On vonage, even if you block vonage, there is a skype waiting in the wings to take over. And skype is infinitely harder to block than vonage. so the technology evolves to work around constraints
Kevin M.
they were trying to limit others to their own already-lowered innovation rate
Kevin M.
so you may have cause and effect backwards there
Kevin M.
right, steve, make asymmetric networks, get a bittorrent arbitrage
David I.
Artificially low prices? You mean "We purposely underbid to win"?
David B.
steve k. but that moving target adds barriers to new apps and changes the market dynamics of the marketplace
Kevin M.
block bittorrent, get a tunnelled encrypted arbitrage
Joshua A.
point is that the community got paid (for the franchises) via low prices to end consumers
Tim R.
And now for something completely different... I'm playing a solo piano number at the end of this session. Any requests? I'm considering a piece by Thelonious Monk, one by Lyle Lovett, or a Jobim selection (but I'm open to other ideas...)
David I.
So how do we know we aren't fooling ourselves again?
Frank P.
purely eleemosynary i n the second wave... just a publc service.
Joshua A.
i vote monk
Tim D.
monk
Frank P.
howard wales
Don J.
i vote jobin or lovett, but will be happy with monk
scott o.
one for lovett
Susan C.
not to mention rights of way
steve k.
lyle lovett
Sep 7
4:50 PM
steve k.
tim R - Lyle lovett
Kevin M.
how did we fund the wifi network?
Frank P. 
"THE MONK IN THE MANSION"
Kevin M.
lots of bottom-up spending by individuals
Susan C.
very small amounts
Kevin M.
exactly, but huge in aggregate
Susan C.
hey, we should write a book!
Kevin M.
driving down the cost of wifi basestations
Joshua A.
there's some value in preventing redlining, i think
Joshua A.
otherwise only rich folks get choice of providers
Joshua A.
(re franchises)
steve k.
one of the miracles of the past few years is that cable has actually started generating free cash. strategy had been to keep borrwing and adding to the system partly to avoid showing a profit and paying tax - not sayingthat's bad
kc c.
fios
Susan C.
right
Frank P.
I don't want a choice of providers, just guaranteed service levels at minimum prices
Kevin M.
choice is how you get guarantees - buy as many 9's
Rahul T.
Kevin - As to why any of what Elliot said is relevant is because there was "something else" (TV) that paid for copper, Rights of way, relationship with consumers, that is being piggy-backed upon to offer broadband. I'm not claiming it's bad or wrong (and DSL did that with voice copper) but it's a reality that affects the possibility of a 3rd pipe
Frank P.
single provider tiered pricing by 9s
steve k.
R=Cautionary tale is Philadelphia, which held off granting a cable franchise for 15-20 years because every mayor understodd that the money was in dangling the pomise of a franchise in front of people, mnot in granting it. Was an icredible gravy train for the City's political elites and it took a consumer revolt in the 80's befre they were finally forced to give up the game and actually grant a franchise. FYI this was comcast's "home" city
Susan C.
no data
Frank P.
PUBLIC POLICY enforcement to assure compliance by the provider
Kevin M.
single providers have single points of failure
Sep 7
4:55 PM
steve k.
Do you really think its a coincidence that congress starts talking about telecom legislation about a year ahead of each election cycle?
Frank P.
hanh?
Kevin M.
agreed rahul, which is why pole access is important
Kevin M.
the other 3rd network is the cellphone one
Frank P.
I'm sure you've designed networksw to avoid single points of failure, I know I have
Kevin M.
the 4th is the wifi one
Rahul T.
power systems are "only" 99.98% reliable (on average) in the US
Emy
the issue with pure bottom up community wifi is lack of tech support and nobody's responsible for making sure the network works. also these networks get concentrated only in wealthy areas (study from U. Texas on this) therefore the network only is for the laptop crowd.
Kevin M.
way below that in California
Emy
btw, I vote for monk
Rahul T.
I am skeptical of phone networks giving full broadband in the near term, esp. enough for video (triple play)
Rahul T.
sorry, cellular phone
Rahul T.
One issue with poles - based on their height, they usually have 3 slots for wires - elec, phone, and cable
steve k.
frank p. what is link is monk in the mansion?
Rahul T.
where do we get fiber?
Frank P.
sorry, just a howard wales recording
Frank P.
Kevin M.
I'm not making an argument against muni networks, emy, I like them too, but the private-built ones are significant, and were a bottom up effort
Kevin M.
Cellphone tower easements are negotiated privately (with a little municipal oversight)
Sep 7
5:00 PM
scott o.
some federal arrows in the celphone tower builders
steve k.
cable really started in the deep valleys of pennsylvania because TV signals didnt penetrate. so you would put an antenna on a mountain and then run coax down the mountain and boost that signal. that is what put in the network. then HBO did emerge and that was a huge risk, but the asset base was already in place and it was driven byy low risk) proposition that people who couldnt get over-the-air would want to watch TV
scott o.
quivers
scott o.
1st cable that showed up in many places was just picture impovement - even today a lot of folk just get "basic"
Kevin M.
so, we built the bottom-up urban wifi cloud - what would it take to build a bottom-up mesh?
scott o.
software
Rahul T.
absolutely, scott. So, in theory, digital TV done right would threaten that market
Sep 7
5:05 PM
Kevin M.
digital tv done right is already threatening that market - the majority of bandwidth use is bittorrent
Joshua A.
digital tv could be great -- but it seems that people are headed to an on-demand world
Joshua A.
and digital terrestrial doesn't help with that
Kevin M.
well, it helps in providing a source for broadly distributed popular programs that can be digitised and buffered for on-demand
steve k.
I am bummed that none of the muni networks have been designed to seed a bottoms-up mesh buidout (ie. - put in basic connectivity). People who want to subscribe to "better" bandwidth have to buy a home router that is programmed to be part of the mesh. So as more people sign up for higher bandwidth services, you seed the network with more and more access hardware. the muni wi fi network acts a trellis on which you hang a big mesh network and over time, it just becomes the big pipes that the mesh drains into.
Kevin M.
that sounds very good
Kevin M.
but the muni nets are often subsidised by manufacturers
Kevin M.
USF!
Kevin M.
and USF provides a pretext to censor the net
Robin C.
steve, come talk to me about that
Sep 7
5:10 PM
Don J.
Our "good friend" Senator Stevens is a huge proponent of USF
Kevin M.
think what Dewayne could do in Alaska with USF money
Eric C.
"It's a series of tubes."
steve k.
the other fun digtal TV threat is that we can do 30 channels of over-the air digital in the existng spectrum. still trying to figure out what that does to the mix
Kevin M.
fibre along the oil pipeline?
Eric C.
Kevin M.
the Bridge router to nowhere?
Rahul T.
what I remember is 1 analog channel ~ 1 HD digital or several [?5-6] regular def digital
Dewayne H.
I'm currently working on a wireless project in Alaska already.
Rick W.
FCC Chairman Martin believes that the public good requires CALEA, USF, and E911 obligations for VoIP providers. The perfect incumbent scenario: deregulate that which is not competitive, and regulate that which challenges the incumbency.
Don J.
E911 and CALEA are so-called "social goods" that are now being directed at the Internet, and will cause a LOT of pain. Susan has blogged extensively on this.
Rick W.
Touche, Don.
Don J.
Joshua A.
also it's a lot easier for vz to offer bandwidth concessions on its new network, given the high capacity of fiber
steve k.
rahul - I am thinking of the UK where they offer 28 (or 32?) channels of free over the air digital. dont think its HD tho
Sep 7
5:15 PM
Kevin M.
no, not HD, but it is widescreen iirc
Joshua A.
yes, it's called Freeview, and is about to pass BSkyB as the leading TV platform
Don J.
We should not give USF money to Dewayne, as good as guy as he is. We should give USF money to the residents, which they can use to buy telecom services from ILEC, or some service Dewayne creates.
Rick W.
USF should become a consumer voucher program; let the user decide whom to subsidize.
Tim D.
Freview - digital TV using MHEG5 presentation
Don J.
I agree with RickW on USF vouchers
David B.
Rick W. that sounds like a great idea
Rahul T.
CMU used to pay the same for the 2.5 Gbps link to qwest for transit as they would to a local provider for the metro link (a few miles)
Rick W.
But probably politically implausible. :(
scott o.
cmu bought the local link from the telco
Eric C.
nobody cares about TOS
Eric C.
(end users, meaning)
Rahul T.
scott: yup
Sep 7
5:20 PM
steve k.
rahul I agree on that - I live 3 blocks from the Federal reserve of boston (who has GOT to be on fiber), but my SP apparently has a huge problem getting the telco to land another T1 into my particular block.
steve k.
really weird.
Gardner M.
House tour at 5:40 starting in the west dining room (sun side).
Kevin M.
that could work, but certainly giving to dewayne or to a competitive tender rather than cost-plus goldplated telco subsidiaries
Joshua A.
thanks gardner
Kevin M.
the BT wifi cafe hooked into Goonhilly sounded fun
Kevin M.
Refactor!
Frank P.
"I want a t-shirt that just says 'Oxy'." -- Doc Searls
scott o.
the boston schools (harvard etc) wound up putting in or buying our own fiber rather than buying service from the telco FAR cheaper
Rahul T.
CMU has similar deals
Rahul T.
but we still have parallel links
Susan C.
you can't "align incentives" when the future of humans is on one side and the interests of incumbents is on the other
Rahul T.
commercial via telco
David W.
I made it into the IRC! at last!
Kevin M.
yay!
David W.
Wish I had something to say.
Susan C.
hi!
Sep 7
5:25 PM
David W.
Can we reprogram the Mylo so that it gives Aibo's digital rabvies?
David W.
I think David ought to give the mylo to the most depressed person at Big Hook.
Eric C.
mylo = hot!
Susan C.
joi has the cool black one
Eric C.
I ::heart:: David W :)
Eric C.
Small Pieces Loosely Joined - read it
Susan C.
yay yay david
Frank P.
Everything is Mucilaginous
Frank P.
errr... Miscellaneous
Sep 7
5:30 PM
David W.
Werewolf: The odd social-conversational game with few rules
Eric C.
David W.
Werewolf is a test for Aspbergers
steve k.
do we get pitchforks and torches?
Rick W.
David W., how would you categorize the book?
David W.
Ironically, Rick, the publisher is putting it into Business Books because that's the most miscellaneous category these days.
Kevin M.
I have that trouble with all your books
Sep 7
7:45 PM
scott o.
xx
Sep 7
8:10 PM
Tim D.
these guys are amazing
Don J.
Yes! That was fantastic!
Sep 7
9:45 PM
Don J.
Unfortunately I need to leave tonight :-(
Don J.
It was great to be here again! Thank you to everyone!

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BigHook Chat

People in this transcript

  • Anders Comstedt
  • Chuck Gritton
  • Clegg Ivey
  • Cynic
  • David Beckemeyer
  • David I (isen)
  • David Isenberg
  • David Weinberger
  • Dewayne Hendricks
  • Display
  • Doc Searls
  • Don Jackson
  • elliot noss
  • Emy
  • Eric Case
  • Frank P.
  • Gardner Miller
  • Jim Baller
  • Joi Ito
  • Jorge
  • Joshua Auerbach
  • kc claffy
  • Kevin Marks
  • Lionel Gibbons
  • Martin Geddes
  • Rahul Tongia
  • Rick Whitt
  • Robin Chase
  • scott o bradner
  • steve kamman
  • Steve Smith
  • Susan C
  • Tim Dodd
  • Tim Ray
  • Tom Freeburg

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