1:30 to 3:30 PM: Session 1a: Introductions
4:00 to 5:30 PM, Session 1b: Intros, cont'd, then Introduction to Infrastructure Economics
8:00 to 9:00 PM, Session 2: Cooperation Gain with David P. Reed, then 5-min talks
| Sep 5 | 1:40 PM |
| elliot n. | we are chatting here! |
| Clegg I. | Campfire is awesome! |
| Aaron S. | There's a speaker icon in the upper right corner: click it to make the beeping noise go away. |
| elliot n. | phew. thanks. |
| Clegg I. | ironic...so little air time...so much hot air |
| Steve_Crocker | Isenberg is an idiot. |
| Sep 5 | 1:45 PM |
| Jerry M. | chatham jouse rules |
| michael w. | we'll knock thst out by dinner |
| steve c. | hmmm ... two steve c.s |
| Peter K. | |
| Jerry M. | |
| Peter K. | "When a meeting, or part thereof, is held under the Chatham House Rule, participants are free to use the information received, but neither the identity nor the affiliation of the speaker(s), nor that of any other participant, may be revealed." |
| Jerry M. | seeeekrit! |
| Peter K. | david sez, it's sekrit, and if you want to talk about someone's ideas, talk to them first |
| Peter K. | "if you want to tag a name to an idea, ask them first" |
| Steve_Crocker | has left the room |
| Jerry M. | that person has since passed away misteriously |
| Jerry M. | er, mysteriously |
| Steve_Crocker | has entered the room |
| kc c. | has entered the room |
| Sep 5 | 1:50 PM |
| Desiree M. | has entered the room |
| Jerry M. | so pete, it's gonna be hard to stay ahead of you here :) |
| Peter K. | it's what I do :-) |
| elliot n. | hearing the little beeps makes me feel a bit like I am on a submarine! :-) |
| Scott B. | has entered the room |
| Jerry M. | not phishing: fishing! |
| Doc S. | has entered the room |
| Doc S. | I'm here now. You're all free to begin. |
| Jerry M. | ah, thank you, Master |
| Sep 5 | 1:55 PM |
| Jerry M. | |
| Jerry M. | Scott Bradner's hub pg |
| Jerry M. | |
| Jerry M. | article on Dewayne: http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/10.01/h… |
| Peter K. | "Tetherless Wireless, Inc." <http://www.tetherless.com/> |
| Sep 5 | 2:00 PM |
| Steve_Crocker | What happened to the project in San Francisco?? |
| Peter K. | "BigHook is about people," not just information -- you can get that on the web. |
| Richard W. | SF = bad politics plus bad business models |
| Jerry M. | |
| Peter K. | Andy Maffei, http://www.whoi.edu/ |
| Peter K. | Jerry - http://www.sociate.com/ |
| Steve_Crocker | Say more about SF. How much of the problem with the business model was obvious? Same question re the politics. |
| Sep 5 | 2:05 PM |
| Doc S. | "All technical problems are technical and political. And you can always solve the technical problems." - Craig Burton |
| kc c. | steve, amidst other reasons, earthlink announced ~1000 layoffs and closing its SF office, and is pulling back on a bunch of its 'unprofitble' muni projects. as is att. we could/should have a whole session on this.. |
| Jerry M. | oh, and I've also got the world's largets online Brain :) |
| Jerry M. | follow "my brain" from the Sociate site Pete listed above |
| Aaron S. | has left the room |
| Peter K. | Roxane Googin |
| Peter K. | "The Paradox of the Perfect Network" |
| Jerry M. | Robert Pepper |
| Sep 5 | 2:10 PM |
| Richard W. | Mr. Differentiation |
| Peter K. | "(network) discrimination does not (necessarily) mean anti-competitive" |
| Peter K. | Greg Elin |
| Peter K. | |
| Desiree M. | wonder what is an example of bits that have not been created equally |
| Peter K. | Andrew Odlyzko <http://www.dtc.umn.edu/~odlyzko/> |
| steve c. | andrew is amazing |
| Jerry M. | beat me to it! |
| Sep 5 | 2:15 PM |
| Jerry M. | The many paradoxes of broadband by Andrew Odlyzko http://firstmonday.org/issues/issue8_9/odlyzko/ |
| Peter K. | |
| Peter K. | "Privacy, Economics, and Price Discrimination on the Internet" |
| Jerry M. | Pete Kaminski |
| Jerry M. | |
| Sep 5 | 2:20 PM |
| Jerry M. | Jorge Ortiz, Interfibra http://www.interfibra.net/ |
| Peter K. | (wow, fish feeding frenzy!) |
| Sep 5 | 2:25 PM |
| Jerry M. | Don Jackson |
| Jerry M. | Tellme, now part o Microsoft |
| Jerry M. | still next to the railroad tracks in Mountain View? |
| Peter K. | Elliot Noss, Tucows |
| Jerry M. | |
| Jerry M. | |
| Don J. | Yes, we are still next to the train tracks on Villa in Mountain View |
| Sep 5 | 2:30 PM |
| Peter K. | |
| Peter K. | Frank Paynter |
| Peter K. | |
| Peter K. | Steve Crocker <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Crocker> |
| Sep 5 | 2:35 PM |
| Peter K. | "Pie In The Sky" <http://www.woodshole.com/pie/> |
| Jerry M. | |
| Peter K. | |
| Peter K. | |
| Peter K. | "Uniform Domain-Name Dispute Resolution Policy"<http://www.icann.org/udrp/#udrp> |
| Jerry M. | where were they in high school? |
| elliot n. | oooh chatham rules be damned! |
| Jerry M. | three piece suits in high school? |
| elliot n. | I believe it was little sailor suits |
| Sep 5 | 2:40 PM |
| Peter K. | |
| Jerry M. | thanx, Pete! |
| elliot n. | nice story! |
| Jerry M. | Desiree Miloshevic |
| Jerry M. | |
| Peter K. | |
| Sep 5 | 2:45 PM |
| Jerry M. | kc claffy |
| Jerry M. | |
| Jerry M. | |
| elliot n. | |
| Jerry M. | rilly k3wL grafs n maps |
| Jerry M. | Douglas Frosst |
| kc c. | also, inspired by bighook i finally started a blog: http://blog.caida.org/ |
| Sep 5 | 2:50 PM |
| Jerry M. | |
| Jerry M. | |
| Jerry M. | http://reddit.com/ (bad people! fired Aaron!) |
| Peter K. | |
| Peter K. | Rick Whitt |
| Sep 5 | 2:55 PM |
| Jerry M. | but modest... :) |
| Andrew O. | has entered the room |
| Jerry M. | |
| Jerry M. | Robin Chase |
| Jerry M. | |
| Jerry M. | thwart the monoliths! |
| elliot n. | million? billion? |
| elliot n. | anyone know? |
| Sep 5 | 3:00 PM |
| Jerry M. | for a mere 500 mill: http://www.terrapass.com/blog/posts/2006/0… |
| Frank P. | I'm also a fan of carbon sequestration |
| Peter K. | robin's hypothesis: free data bits is the key to solving global warming |
| Jerry M. | I think carbon should be sequestered and tortured! |
| Peter K. | by enabling smart infrastructure |
| Doc S. | Did you hear the Bush administration plans to auction the periodic table? |
| Frank P. | congestion pricing in London is - according to a cab driver I talked to -- set at a revenue raising rate, not a social engineering rate |
| Peter K. | carbon footprint: cars, 15%; homes, 20%; all buildings, 50% |
| steve c. | factoid... the world is about 13 TW at the moment |
| Jerry M. | then administer slight shocks in bed... |
| elliot n. | doc, I will be bidding on lithium.....stay away |
| Peter K. | Pip Coburn |
| Jerry M. | Pip Coburn |
| Robin C. | has entered the room |
| Jerry M. | Coburn Ventures, http://coburnventures.com/ |
| Jerry M. | my partner on the weekly Yi-Tan Tech Community Calls :) |
| Frank P. | carbon sequestration in secret locations in southwest asian countries? |
| Jerry M. | |
| elliot n. | pip is a smart investor who asks public company ceos the right tough questions |
| Sep 5 | 3:05 PM |
| Jerry M. | yes, frank. we're using extraordinary rendition laws nicely given us by the bush administration! |
| Aaron S. | has entered the room |
| elliot n. | about anything past the next 90 days! |
| Anders F. | has left the room |
| Peter K. | Clegg Ivey |
| Jerry M. | |
| Jerry M. | quick, Pete! |
| Peter K. | |
| Peter K. | "FDA Cracks Down on Cocaine Energy Drink" |
| Peter K. | moral: don't name your drink "Cocaine" :-) |
| Jerry M. | |
| elliot n. | View paste
|
| Jerry M. | |
| Peter K. | |
| Jerry M. | |
| Richard W. |
View paste
|
| Sep 5 | 3:10 PM |
| Jerry M. | |
| Richard W. | oops, went off screen. |
| Jerry M. | see above for cluetrain |
| Peter K. | Doc Searls |
| Jerry M. | |
| Jerry M. | |
| Peter K. | |
| Jerry M. | dang! |
| Peter K. | :-) |
| michael w. | has left the room |
| Peter K. | RAID system: http://www.g-technology.com/Products/G-SAFE.cfm |
| Sep 5 | 3:15 PM |
| Jerry M. | now that's a RAID! :) |
| Jerry M. | (our musicians, I mean) |
| Sep 5 | 3:20 PM |
| Sep 5 | 4:15 PM |
| Peter K. | has entered the room |
| Jerry M. | mmm, tequila shots for everyone! |
| Richard W. | has entered the room |
| Sep 5 | 4:20 PM |
| Richard W. | News Flash:BigHook proves congestion pricing |
| steve c. | has entered the room |
| Peter K. | Tom Freeburg |
| Jerry M. | Tom Freeburg |
| Jerry M. | ha! :) |
| Barbara C. | has entered the room |
| Jerry M. | |
| Casey L. | has left the room |
| Anders F. | has entered the room |
| Jean R. | has entered the room |
| Sep 5 | 4:30 PM |
| Peter K. | Mike Marshall <http://mikemarshall.net/> |
| Jerry M. | |
| Robin C. | has entered the room |
| Frank P. | paul court? http://www.crashsite.org/bandmember2.htm |
| Frank P. | nahhh born in '65 |
| Peter K. | |
| Sep 5 | 4:35 PM |
| Peter K. | |
| Jerry M. | Sara Wedeman |
| Jerry M. | |
| elliot n. | has entered the room |
| Sep 5 | 4:40 PM |
| Jerry M. | Tim Nulty |
| Peter K. | Vermont Businesses for Social Responsibility <http://vbsr.org/> |
| Sep 5 | 4:45 PM |
| Peter K. | Burlington FTTH / Nulty article: http://www.vermontguides.com/2007/01-jan/b… |
| steve k. | has entered the room |
| Aaron S. | has entered the room |
| steve k. | hello world |
| Jerry M. | you are in a wooded forest. paths lead east, south and west. next move? |
| Sep 5 | 4:50 PM |
| steve k. | Of course we al know everyone in Burlington is a heathen pinko fifth columnist who would gladly sell us out to te terrorists if they got half the chance (or at least I hope the right people keep thinking that so they don't move there and ruin the place...) |
| Peter K. | Barbara Cherry <http://www.indiana.edu/~telecom/faculty/ch…; |
| Peter K. | "in terms of deregulation, we may have dug too far" |
| Peter K. | |
| Jerry M. | the Wikipedia entry on Common Carrier really needs help: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_carrier |
| Sep 5 | 4:55 PM |
| steve k. | Barbara sure doesn't talk like an ex-AT&T lawyer... Did the battery in the microchip they implant run down? Or is she a North Korean sleeper designed to gut any common carrier legislation at the last moment (I have a great image of someone showing her a playing card and she goes all rigid...). Apolgies to barbara ad the manchurian candidate. |
| Jerry M. | |
| steve k. | "Bilderberg Conferences reference page: Secret lobbying for Anti-Democratic European Superstate by Western Elite " |
| Jerry M. | |
| Jerry M. | Mark Peshoff |
| Richard W. | Geez, good thing Steve showed up to keep us on track. |
| Jerry M. | it'll be a bad sign if he stops sponsoring Bighook, now that he's come. everyone, on your best behavior! |
| Sep 5 | 5:00 PM |
| Richard W. | A round of undifferentiated liquor for our Cisco friends. |
| Anders F. | has left the room |
| steve c. | anders turns up in the most unusual places |
| Jerry M. | Anders Fernstedt |
| Jerry M. | Anders is very hard to keep track of |
| steve c. | ask him about hitching rides on corporate jets |
| Jerry M. | I think he lives on a raft in the ocean |
| Jerry M. | greg, can you send Sara an invite into this chat? |
| Ewan M. | has entered the room |
| Sep 5 | 5:05 PM |
| Jerry M. | Steve Crandall |
| Jerry M. | |
| Richard W. | Nice Paul Romer economics piece: http://www.stanford.edu/~promer/EconomicGrowth.pdf |
| Jerry M. | |
| Jerry M. | steve demoed something just like an iPod to Jobs years before the real iPod |
| Jerry M. | |
| Peter K. | TIMARA <http://timara.con.oberlin.edu/> |
| Sep 5 | 5:10 PM |
| Jerry M. | Casey Lide |
| Jerry M. | |
| michael w. | has entered the room |
| Sep 5 | 5:15 PM |
| Jerry M. | Jean Russell, http://nurturegirl.net/ |
| Jerry M. | +1 (making the world a better place; what took us so long to say this here?) |
| Scott B. | Casey - how do we get on your list? |
| Jerry M. | Britt Blaser |
| Jerry M. | |
| Jerry M. | |
| steve c. | has left the room |
| Anders F. | has entered the room |
| steve c. | has entered the room |
| Doc S. | "take away things that are stopping you from doing something rather than imaine something that may or may not happen" - Britt Blaser. (see if I got that right) |
| steve c. | sky photos http://homepage.mac.com/esc/sky/ |
| Peter K. | ORGware - http://www.openresourcegroup.com/ |
| Sep 5 | 5:20 PM |
| Doc S. | "in 1982 I pulled into a parking place in a shopping center I'd built, and realized that one day everything would be available to everybody at a market price. I just didn't know it was zero." (gang edit that too) |
| Doc S. | need to have a "utility district" explained. |
| Doc S. | New to most of us. |
| Greg E. | |
| Britt B. | |
| Doc S. | Britt is also a multiple recipient of Distinguished Flying Crosses during his duty in Vietnam. |
| Britt B. | Rick Rubin: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/02/magazine… |
| Doc S. | To get NY times links out from behind the paywall, you can use Aaron's hack here: |
| Doc S. | |
| Doc S. | The Rick Rubin link, cleansed: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/02/magazine… |
| Sep 5 | 5:25 PM |
| Jerry M. | Brett Frischmann |
| Jerry M. | |
| Jerry M. | |
| elliot n. | nice aaron! well done |
| elliot n. | I will visit you in IP jail! I will bring buns. |
| Aaron S. | has left the room |
| Jerry M. | buns? in jail... hmmm.... |
| Peter K. | |
| elliot n. | you dirty man |
| Jerry M. | Chad Jones |
| Peter K. | |
| Richard W. | Nice Paul Romer economics piece: http://www.stanford.edu/~promer/EconomicGrowth.pdf |
| Sep 5 | 5:30 PM |
| Jerry M. | |
| Steve_Crocker | has left the room |
| Richard W. | we won't ask how David's big hook fits into his infrastructure. |
| Sep 5 | 5:40 PM |
| Sep 5 | 8:40 PM |
| Jerry M. | David Reed is up |
| Peter K. | |
| Peter K. | The Computer as a Communication Device |
| Sep 5 | 8:45 PM |
| Jerry M. | thanks, Pete! |
| Peter K. | |
| Sep 5 | 8:50 PM |
| Jerry M. | my 2005 blog post echoing the point David started with: http://www.freelists.org/archives/sociate/… |
| steve c. | has entered the room |
| Jerry M. | |
| Jerry M. | |
| Aaron S. | has entered the room |
| Britt B. | slime mold: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96U-6iU8W_A |
| Sep 5 | 8:55 PM |
| Robin C. | has entered the room |
| Sara W. | britt, thanks for that extremely vile but somehow illustrative 'exhibit,' it's really helping me digest my dinner (not!) |
| steve c. | like listening to EO Wilson talking about ants |
| Peter K. | "The Force of the `Pacemaker' Concept in Theories of Aggregation in Cellular Slime Mold." Fundamenta Scientiae (1982), 3(2): 221-226. Reprinted in _Reflections on Gender and Science_, pp. 150-157 |
| Sep 5 | 9:00 PM |
| Britt B. | "When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong." |
| Steve_Crocker | has entered the room |
| Sep 5 | 9:05 PM |
| steve c. | the old series "the story of english" is terrific ... it speaks to the ability of the language to morph |
| Jerry M. | Internet II = Esperanto? |
| Steve_Crocker | How many bits can the Ether carry? I *love* this question! A quick reaction is that distance is probably involved too, |
| steve k. | the internet is what happens when you were really planning something else. |
| Jerry M. | |
| Jerry M. | aka Augment/NLS |
| elliot n. | sort of like smtp while x501 was being "planned" |
| michael w. | has entered the room |
| elliot n. | it is very controversial in the spectrum discussions |
| steve k. | I actually think its better to day "the internet happens when you are planning for a way to get around the phone company. A lot of the innovation seems to have stemmed from working around some very major constraints imposed by non-ownership of the switching fabric/infratstructure. So the entire infrastructure was based around the assumption of an hostile transport environment.. |
| Jerry M. | can you hear me now? |
| Sep 5 | 9:10 PM |
| Peter K. | DySPAN: Dynamic Spectrum Access Networks |
| elliot n. | nature does not move towards goals. she routes around obstacles. [attribution to come] |
| steve k. | If we hadnt had that "enemy" we would not have develpped the robustness of the architecture. so maybe the web is a really successful virus? |
| Steve_Crocker | We need to continue to assume the transport environment is hostile. There's no reason for the carrier to know what's inside the packets we're transmitting. If the carrier can see inside the packets, they will subdivide the services and charge different prices for the same service based on what they think the market will bear. Just like the airlines. |
| Doc S. | We can't help using metaphors. That's key. |
| Peter K. | More Is Different. P. W. Anderson. Science, New Series, Vol. 177, No. 4047. (Aug. 4, 1972), pp. 393-396 |
| Doc S. | When we say we build sites with addresses and locations called domains and these require architects and designers and builders and have traffic, we're saying the Net (or the Web) is real estate. Whether we know it or not. |
| steve c. | there are interesting bridges these days in phyics |
| Jerry M. | |
| Jerry M. | pdf |
| Clegg I. | has entered the room |
| Jerry M. | <high five w pete> |
| steve c. | we do talk to each other:-) |
| Peter K. | :-) |
| Charles G. | Patton wrote: "Victory in the next war will depend in EXECUTION not PLANS." |
| Sep 5 | 9:15 PM |
| steve c. | need to apply more heat to ma bell ... sadly things seem to be cooling in the relevant phase spaces |
| Richard W. | has left the room |
| Sara W. | has left the room |
| Sara W. | has entered the room |
| Doc S. | |
| elliot n. | the Internet is FULL of arbitrage, in fact google has created massive arbitrage opportunitites. but it is the "liquidity" that flows from adsense that creates it. |
| Sep 5 | 9:20 PM |
| Doc S. | |
| Aaron S. | "the economics of the Internet are full of what I would call 'parallel play behavior'" |
| steve k. | agree elliot - one great example is P2P which works around a market constraint (assymetric bandwidth) to achieve an end. |
| David I. | has entered the room |
| steve c. | and if you really stretch... bose einstein condensates |
| Jerry M. | whose properties are... |
| elliot n. | I am thinking more of lead arbitrage which is quietly in the billions of dollars. |
| Doc S. | "one of the reasons IPV6 may not be succeeding is that it's not liquid enough..." dreed (correct, please... good quote) |
| Jerry M. | we're busy designing a plasma with solid parts and solid business models |
| Sep 5 | 9:25 PM |
| Jerry M. | so we can't really design it. it emerges from our messy efforts |
| Greg E. | Inconceeeeeble! |
| Jerry M. | Gurunanda Reedabavi |
| Greg E. | (oops) Inconceevable |
| Jerry M. | Greg, I do not think that word means what you think it means |
| Jerry M. | my name is Inigo Montoya... |
| Sara W. | speaking of constructs, gerunds, and analogies, my brain is beginning to resemble (or possibly become) a slime mold |
| Sara W. | grotesque as that may seem, even to me |
| Greg E. | My name is Indigo Montoya. You killed my network. Prepare to be regulated. |
| Sara W. | greg, your memory for dialogue is failing you. i am very disappointed |
| Jerry M. | maybe Ivan Seidenberg is the six-fingered man! |
| Greg E. | The six-sigma man! |
| Sara W. | i know you know the princess bride by heart. |
| steve k. | Why does open source work? Externalities/community. The open source engineering community contributes to it because the existince of open source software gives them employment andstatus within that community gves them better employment. So you great the main "good" (software) to extract value from the externalities (open source support/implementation work). This is why open source software ALWAYS has lousy management and deployment tools - the guys writing it get ad to do the maaging and deploying. |
| Greg E. | But I don |
| Sara W. | you don what? |
| Jerry M. | so if matter is energy trapped in fields, maybe identity is relationships trapped around a centroid. then what are the new business flows? |
| Doc S. | Metaphors, to work, need to say "this is that". Time is money. Life is travel. What *is* the "you centered version?" It has to be as clear as "the net is pipes" or "the net is a place". |
| Greg E. | But I don't understand why so many capitalist are confused by "Free Software." Don't they talk about "Free Markets"? |
| Sep 5 | 9:30 PM |
| steve k. | Greg -the software isnt ree. You still have to ay people to run it |
| steve k. | srry - pay people |
| Peter K. | dreed: "You-centered", "Us-centered" |
| Doc S. | Open source works because it's practical. Call them "externalities" or "because effects," the simple result of open source development is profoundly practical. It's building material. Linux, memecached, php, mysql... all 200k open source projects are nothing more than building material. Because of that building material, enormous economic benefits can be derived. |
| Charles G. | Doc, maybe the metaphor is an environment for the relationship rather than just the relationship directly - and therefore statically |
| Sara W. | what is the polemic here? |
| Jerry M. | David Bohm, the black sheep physicist, created a language called Rheomode as a thought experiment. Instead of subject-verb-object, it used intertwined verbs and counted on relationships between the words. I forget the rest, but it was interesting commentary on how the very structure of our language contributes to our inability to see what's going on |
| Greg E. | Steve K: The market isn't free either. I have to pay people for money. |
| Sara W. | or is there one? |
| Greg E. | But "Free" doesn't mean "zero cost" in *either* Free Markets or Free Software (Open Source). It means *freedom* |
| Doc S. | We understand everything in terms of other things. That's how metaphor works. That's how understanding itself is metaphorical. We need to either develop existing metaphors for the Net, or develop new ones that people will use to understand it *in terms of*. Tall order on the latter. |
| Doc S. | I like the liquid idea. |
| Sara W. | i agree with you jerry, about the language issue. it is very interesting |
| Doc S. | It's the world, but it's mostly water. Ocean. |
| Doc S. | wide open and free, a tide that lifts all boats. |
| Peter K. | related presentation deck by David: "Liquid Communications"<http://cfit.ucdavis.edu/internet_futures/p…; |
| Peter K. | (pdf) |
| steve c. | has left the room |
| Sep 5 | 9:35 PM |
| Doc S. | greg, "free as in freedom" or even "free as in no-cost" are both off topic for most open source or free software developers. They need to either create or improve building material. The fact that it's free and open makes it more useful. The friction involved in use is very low. The economic benefits can be very high. there would be no google if not for Linux, MySQL, and a pile of other building materials that grow in the wild. |
| Jerry M. | yep, very thoughtful and useful |
| Doc S. | slime mold on a liquid petrie medium? |
| Peter K. | "a large group of frightened middle managers trying to keep their jobs" |
| Jerry M. | ooze, ooze, ooze |
| Doc S. | Night of the Living Ooze. |
| Frank P. | has entered the room |
| Sep 5 | 9:40 PM |
| Peter K. | strong property rights : solid :: weak property rights : liquid |
| Peter K. | but what is the underlying question we're trying to analyze with the phase metaphor? |
| Doc S. | As long as the Net is conceived as pipes for pumping content (liquid!), the carriers will be on strong metaphorical ground for arguing that the Net is their property to do with what they please. This is the default, generally, right now. As Sen. Stevens showed. |
| Greg E. | Doc: Agree in many respects. The freedom is a means to an end: the ability to improve things. And fit them into the (temporary) state of the fluid dynamics. |
| Sara W. | from the online etymology dictionary: origin and meanings of the word "free:" |
| Sara W. | View paste
|
| Doc S. | My question for David: in briefest terms, how is the Net liquid? |
| Sara W. | yike that paste didn't work. hang on. |
| Frank P. | now that the monopoly (or strong oligopoly) is re-emerging, is that like the liquid behaving like a super saturated solution? |
| Greg E. | Relationships are tied to context. Devices have/create contexts. Hence friends can change according to device/context b/c not all your friends transfer to the new context. |
| Frank P. | @sara w. "free" as in beer? |
| Greg E. | My "motorcycle friends" consist of individuals who have the device called a motorcycle. |
| Sara W. | View paste
|
| Aaron S. | has left the room |
| Doc S. | Twenty years ago Craig Burton, then at Novell, told me that the company was the largest seller of Ethernet interface cards, selling millions at upwards of $1k/card. But he didn't want to publicize that fact, because "Ethernet will be a zero dollar business." Recently he said the same thing about the Net. |
| Jerry M. | that would have gone over well in France... |
| Sara W. | meanings matter (and in partial response to frank ;_0 |
| Frank P. | doc he was stuffing the channel then I think |
| steve c. | has entered the room |
| Sara W. | oops. my typing stinks tonight. |
| Sep 5 | 9:45 PM |
| Greg E. | Those friends that did not get on the Internet did not have the same relationship with me as those who did. |
| Sara W. | second try: ;-). note reference from etymology in re: your beer comment |
| Greg E. | Likewise, those friends who can do SMS are a different kind of friend than those who do not. |
| Peter K. | and to reverse engineer the question out of that, "how shall we view the Internet as we continue to do engineering on it?" |
| steve k. | except dave I never looks at the board... |
| Peter K. | if it's really in liquid phase, but we try to engineer it as a solid, we'll be doing the engineering wrong |
| Jerry M. | |
| Frank P. | similes are less burdensome to the community consciousness than metaphors |
| elliot n. | has left the room |
| Andrew M. | has entered the room |
| Richard W. | has entered the room |
| Jerry M. | |
| Sara W. | i am worried about the excessive use of scientific metaphors. of course, it is reflective in part of the background of the participants but why should anyone assume that the laws of human behavior on a communications web are necessarily comparable to those of amoeba, slime molds or the like? |
| Sep 5 | 9:50 PM |
| Sara W. | is it not possible that the human behavior has 'laws' in its own right |
| Sara W. | |
| Peter K. | sara, they're not necessarily comparable, but the examples are existing frameworks |
| Doc S. | Good point, Frank. Saying what something is like is easier to follow than saying what something is. (The former a simile, the latter a metaphor.) Same with analogies. |
| Andrew M. | Another way to see Internet as liquid is the same 'ol circuit (solid) versus packet (liquid) argument. |
| Sara W. | they are not, however, the only available examples |
| steve k. | eeeek - the Internet is like IBM just before it dies |
| Sara W. | besides, we have gone on at some length about the physics of liquids, and etc. |
| Peter K. | so by comparing them to see if they fit, we might find a framwork that fits, or pieces of frameworks that fit -- or might just be a good jumping off place for brainstorming a better understanding |
| Peter K. | it's a roomful of physicists, so we talk about physics :-) |
| Sara W. | a metaphor is sometimes helpful as a device for learning about meaning, but that's all |
| Doc S. | Yet we need to remember that understanding is still metaphorical in the sense that we know everything in terms of something else. And there is a strange irony in this. Time is not really money. Yet we save, waste, spend, invest, set aside and trow away time. We literally understand it in terms of money. |
| Sara W. | of course. such is my observation |
| Jerry M. | and illiquidity is the phase change to solid, as happened with sub-prime mortgages recently |
| Jerry M. | when liquidity vanishes, it's a crisis |
| Sara W. | i would argue that 'liquidity' in finance and liquidity in h20 are entirely different. |
| Sara W. | but that's not really my point |
| Frank P. | the slime mold exhibits survival "behavior" when moisture and/or nutrients in the environment are restricted... is the intertubes like that? |
| steve k. | Andrew - I dont think that is the only way. the main source of innovation on the internet has been in different protocls (FTP, HTTP, P2P). "Liquidity" in terms of innovation/evolution of the structure and/or organizing principles. |
| Doc S. | Similarly, we understand the Net in terms of a number of overlapping metaphors, each of which say the net is something. It's a place (domain, location). It's a transport system (content that we move through a medium via packets). It's a publishing system (by which we write, author, post and syndicate). |
| Sara W. | consider this, in re: doc's comment: do we 'bank' time? if so i think the western approach to time is just as weird as is the western approach to money |
| Doc S. | Liquid, as david describes it, is a variation on the place metaphor. it's a flexible place. I'd like to say it's flexible ... stuff. |
| michael w. | well, people "save" vacation time |
| Sep 5 | 9:55 PM |
| Richard W. | Kevin Werbach wrote an interesting paper several years ago, "Breaking the Ice," that maps the solid-liquid-gas metaphors to the physical-logical-applications layers of the Internet. Among other things, this shifts the focus of liquidity to the actual activity of the Net, as opposed to the more solid nature of the underlying infrastructure. One of Kevin's views is that the layers themselves are less important than the phase transitions between the different phases of matter -- the software-defined interfaces such as unique identifier databases and interconnection mandates. |
| Sep 5 | 9:55 PM |
| Doc S. | The internet as an ecology is also a form of the place or world metaphor. (world are places too). |
| Sara W. | yes, i understand the use of metaphor. I just get worried that we conflate the metaphor and the thing |
| Sara W. | i don't agree that the internet is an ecology. the internet is an internet. we oughta get curious about what that is |
| Doc S. | All metaphors are wrong. that's the irony. |
| Jerry M. | George Lakoff, Metaphors We Live By |
| Frank P. | doc, except that one! |
| Peter K. | Breaking The Ice (pdf): http://werbach.com/docs/breaking_the_ice.pdf |
| Don J. | Vint: There was an interesting book and series of follow on conferences on Economics as Ecology, Bionomics. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bionomics |
| Sara W. | .....i hate to use the term, but perhaps we should think in terms of what is it, rather than what is it like? |
| Richard W. | But some metaphors are less misleading than others. |
| Doc S. | A is B works because A is different but in some way similar to B. |
| Doc S. | right |
| Steve_Crocker | Isn' |
| elliot n. | has entered the room |
| Frank P. | |
| Doc S. | Prepositions are revealing. |
| Sara W. | psychological research has shown pretty strong evidence to support the statement that people do have altruistic motivations that are quite different and even antithetical to the profit motive |
| Doc S. | We go "on" the net. Not "through" it. |
| Casey L. | has entered the room |
| Sara W. | and they have other motivations as well. again, unrelated to economic ones. well, we knew that. |
| Jerry M. | and the Internet's founders weren't overwhelmed with the need to score a commercial victory |
| Doc S. | "the internet didn't grow because a bunch of ISPs said 'let's build an internet'" good line. didn't catch the rest. |
| Steve_Crocker | t barnraising related to iterated prisoners dilemma? It's not an isolated event. Rather, it's part of an ongoing sequence, and each person is evaluatiing what to do based on the overall payoff, not one specific day. |
| Sara W. | back to the barn raising, yes it makes sense in light of the human altruistic motive. |
| Sara W. | no it is not a prisoners dilemma |
| Sara W. | that is a massive oversimplification. not meaning to be harsh here, but it's true |
| Peter K. | dpreed, 2002: 'Metaphor is one of the most dangerous tools in use today. But we conspire and pretend metaphors are reality, rather than investigating and exposing their limits. When I talk to reporters, the first thing they want is a good metaphor. When I say it's not that simple, they lose interest. We admire the "clever metaphor" too much.' |
| Frank P. | prisoners dilemma fails in context of altruism and irrationality based on emotion |
| elliot n. | it is the opposite of prisoner's dilemma. it is free man's pleasure! |
| Frank P. | only useful as an economic trope |
| Sara W. | yup |
| Sep 5 | 10:00 PM |
| Jerry M. | people are a virus on the planet... gosh, gotta stop channeling Mr. Smith |
| Peter K. | one of david's points here is that as a society we already conceptualize the Internet with a metaphor (a series of tubes) but that it's vastly wrong. replacing it with a less wrong metaphor might be much less damaging. |
| Robin C. | I like the idea that we don't worry about accountability in an environment of abundance. This makes me want to make sure we nail down the culture of collaboration now. Because we are about to experience a world with vastly less abundance, maybe no abundance. |
| Doc S. | Robin, right. |
| Sara W. | communication has value in its own right. again, it does not make sense to express it in monetary terms because it is not money and has its own function that has its own (argh) paradigm, etc |
| Steve_Crocker | well, i'm not an economist, and I may be way off base, but let me play dumb student here. It seems to me if one or a small number of members of the community refuse to participate in a barn raising, they will not stop the barn from being raised and they will incur great wrath from the rest of the community. This will harm them, probably quite substantially. |
| Jerry M. | yes, robin. if you assume abundance, the work (and cost) of accounting goes by the boards |
| Jerry M. | and that cost savings is hard to compete with |
| Doc S. | Maybe the Internet is the ocean and not the land. Or the structure. |
| Frank P. | if the internecks is IBM, what is Lenovo? |
| Don J. | Bionomics: Economy As Ecosystem http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=080… |
| Jerry M. | note that some 60 percent of telco costs are in running their billing systems |
| Frank P. | @jerry ... inefficiently |
| Jerry M. | aye |
| Richard W. | Perhaps one also can view the Internet from the other end of this metaphor: as a "happy accident" of flexible network design that was frozen in time outside the constraints of the marketplace, but is now thawing out slowly (and losing its integrity) under the heat of certain players in that marketplace. |
| Frank P. | ain't transport a commodity? |
| Sara W. | note: all the research shows that people who volunteer (even to raise barns) end up psychologically better off than those who don't. it doesn't mean that its not a bummer to have your neighbors mad at you, but the main point is that people experience pleasure in giving. they miss out on the pleasure if they sit home refusing to help (i am speaking in generalities, of course, but based on generalizeable social research) |
| Jerry M. | yes, Rick. zackly |
| Sep 5 | 10:05 PM |
| Jerry M. | again: we're using Newtonian physics to describe and try to design a post-Einsteinian world |
| kc c. | i missed where we're headed for a world of vastly less abundance, is that applied to bandwidth? |
| Steve_Crocker | Sara, do they feel better solely because their value system tells them they did a good deed, or is some (all?) of the pleasure derived from the feedback from their neighbors. Doesn't that feedback, which is usually in terms of appreciation and respect, often result in greater power or other forms of "wealth" for the person who was altruistic? What happens to the analysis of altruism if the acts are rigorously anonymous? Does altruism persist as vigorously? |
| Jerry M. | I didn't hear about less abundance, kc |
| Jerry M. | thought we were aiming toward more |
| Doc S. | good points, richard. |
| steve k. | please put book suggestions on the board - half the reason I cme to bighook! |
| Sara W. | no the research suggests that the value comes from the experience in its own right. thus, the fairly well documented notion that people have an inherent 'altruistic motive' |
| Frank P. | @kc I don't think so.... I think building out bandwidth is a palliative, so we will have more bandwidth as we have less fresh water, less energy |
| Jerry M. | does this mean we have to double down? |
| kc c. | wrt cost of metering, don't forget odlyzko's paper http://nexus.umn.edu/Papers/TooExpensiveTo… |
| Jean R. | has entered the room |
| Sep 5 | 10:10 PM |
| Sara W. | steve, i am not suggesting that i know everything about the research on altruism |
| Doc S. | We can explain atruism in a variety of ways, some of which reduce altruism to motivations that are not inherently generous. Yet altruistic actions happen. We can count on them. |
| Doc S. | There is also actions that we do on behalf of us, and not just of ourselves. |
| Doc S. | Whether or not we call that generous. |
| Sara W. | but i am acquainted with this body of literature, and knowing that there is a huge amount of research on a lot of the subjects we have been reducing to physics and economics is precisely what i objected to earlier |
| Doc S. | To Pip: if the internet is a tool, is it one you own? or that you rent? |
| Sara W. | please, listen to me. people spend a lot of time studying this stuff! |
| kc c. | have used lots of metaphors for net in talks -- benkler's 'institutional ecology' metaphor of the net gives me warm fuzzy feeling that i could take a measuring cup outside and pick up some dirt and measure it, unlike what is needed for studying the Internet, which is access to bits running thru atoms owned by someone else.. |
| Sara W. | we can learn something from them! |
| steve c. | has left the room |
| Sara W. | something useful |
| steve k. | View paste
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| Peter K. | "action taken towards the experience of oneness" <http://www.freedomlab.org/2007/07/18/resea…; |
| steve k. | Great books on markets, the people in them, and their flaws are Nasim Taleb's books - "the black swan" and "fooled by randomness." On the Web as a complex system - "Linked" by some Italian professor. |
| Jerry M. | the Internet is a floor wax and a toothpaste |
| steve k. | "The Internet is home depot - it doesnt do shit" |
| Douglas F. | The Internet - You can do it, we can help |
| Jean R. | View paste
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| Sara W. | boy, how did we get onto all the hygeine metaphors. that isn't quite what i had in mind |
| steve k. | I am getting very fond of the slime mold metaphor. Stock market is full of them, they just move faster and wear better suits. |
| Doc S. | Britt: "We love hierarchies. People like new and exciting ones. Not old and boring ones." Thought: apple's announcements today. Why do we care? |
| steve k. | Corproations are essentially metastatic |
| Sara W. | ok, combustions: ammonia+ bleach |
| elliot n. | <------ picturing a slime mold in a suit |
| Sara W. | be careful when you mix metaphors |
| Sep 5 | 10:15 PM |
| Sara W. | it's a look. |
| Sep 5 | 10:15 PM |
| kc c. | if you actually look at an hour of packets on a net link, you would find the sewer system metaphor compelling. i may have even been relieved to see it catching on.. http://lw.pennnet.com/display_article/3035… |
| Frank P. | "looks good as a slime-mold" |
| Doc S. | "We've gotten real bad at building new interesting hierachies" |
| Sara W. | now that's something to aspire to, frank |
| Peter K. | |
| Steve_Crocker | Sara, thanks. |
| Frank P. | it's corporate values emergent |
| Sara W. | you're welcome Steve, and thanks to you too |
| Robin C. | Britt, is "heirarchy" the right word? seems like you were talking about control, not hierarchy. HOw many possible hierarchies are there? two: hierarchical or horizontal |
| Sep 5 | 10:20 PM |
| Doc S. | Cura?ao? that one? |
| Steve_Crocker | has entered the room |
| Sep 5 | 10:40 PM |
| Doc S. | countries strung together free of regualtory issues. spread spectrum, wideband overlay. |
| Sara W. | yes, that one |
| Sara W. | i'm very jealous. i have no gigs there |
| Jerry M. | reinvent the spectrum elsewhere, then show those here it can be done |
| Jerry M. | lead by example |
| Tim D. | has entered the room |
| Charles G. | has left the room |
| Sara W. | how about the malagasay republic (aka madagascar)? |
| Peter K. | "NEWGOV.US - 535 free, highly-customizable and sophisticated social networking web sites - one for every US Congressional district and Senate seat." |
| Jerry M. | |
| Jerry M. | |
| Jerry M. | Greg is Sunlight's evil genius |
| Sep 5 | 10:45 PM |
| David I. | here's an experiment -- a letter from Joe Weed to BigHook |
| David I. | View paste
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| Doc S. | Andrew: Fraud is essential to progress. |
| David I. | the pix didn't come thru |
| Jerry M. | tx, doc |
| Peter K. | |
| Jerry M. | |
| Britt B. | has entered the room |
| Jerry M. | and there was a canal mania before that, I think |
| steve k. | The glenmuchkin railway is HILARIOUS and painfully true. Really worth a read. |
| Jerry M. | what book, steve? |
| Sep 5 | 10:50 PM |
| steve k. | Glenmuchkin railway http://www.dtc.umn.edu/~odlyzko/rrsources/… |
| kc c. | not to play a broken record, but the fraud is largely a result of lack of transparency in the markets, yes? a la http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stiglitz#Info… |
| elliot n. | fraud is a function of bad behavior and greed, not lack of transparency. |
| Peter K. | vint: television industry will have to change business models based on ability to transmit video over Internet, esp. in faster than real-time |
| Sep 5 | 10:55 PM |
| Peter K. | dns with international characters |
| Peter K. | ipv6 / ipv4 "mixed-mode" troubles to come |
| steve k. | Fraud is alos usually a good sign that there were/are above average returns in an area. SOme guy finds a gold mine, then the fraudsters move in. No gold, no opportunity for fraud. |
| Peter K. | net neutrality, limited ability for existing broadband providers to see new business models |
| Peter K. | bit rot |
| Jerry M. | brewster kahle is working hard to address this issue, at least as a matter of last resort |
| steve k. | Then there are sectors that become perennial petri dishes for fraud. e.g gold mines and anything listed on the vancouver stock exchange. |
| Peter K. | need new business models due to changed economics of digital transmission / storage |
| steve k. | There are some HUGE problems with survivabilty of storage - especially as technologies like data de-duplication add a layer of abstraction so that every bit created is not recorded in place. |
| Sep 5 | 11:00 PM |
| Andrew M. | has entered the room |
| Peter K. | dpreed: bt analysis that opex is not related to capex anymore |
| Desiree M. | has entered the room |
| Jerry M. | her name is Varinia Robinson |
| Jerry M. | here's the site: http://www.phila.gov/wireless |
| Jerry M. | that's from the WTF conf Sara mentioned |
| steve k. | Philadelphia is legendary as the city that didnt grant a cabl franchise until the '80s because the politicians figures out there was incredibly money/power/contributions to be had by keeing the cable franchise granting process going without EVER actually granting it... |
| Sep 5 | 11:05 PM |
| Doc S. | Same with Lompoc, in Santa Barbara County. It's available only to locals. And the signals are strong only here and there out in the roads, where free wi-fi from citizens is far more useful. |
| Jerry M. | wasn't Adelphia in that zone? |
| David I. | how much is phila wifi a MONTH? |
| Peter K. | |
| Doc S. | City of Brotherly Shove. |
| steve k. | This is also why that great piece of real estate in the center of a city like new york (e.g. brooklyn navy yard) sits undeveloped. More profit to be gained by dangling it in front of successive developers. Also the developers always gang up if some other developer starts to look like they might emerge a winner |
| Doc S. | Jerry! |
| steve k. | Jerry - no Philadelphis is Comcast territory. Adelhia is pittsburgh |
| Jerry M. | I'm Jerry's internal thoughts. |
| Jerry M. | I'm really happy (mostly) to be here. |
| Doc S. | How bighookrs can get more done. |
| Doc S. | Is BigHookr.com taken? |
| Doc S. | BigHooker.org |
| Sara W. | has left the room |
| David I. | please sell bighookr.com to a fishing tackle shop |
| Peter K. | Jerry: "how best might BigHookers form groups around our interests?" |
| Doc S. | SmallHookr.org |
| Peter K. | greg's learning from sunlight: start with small projects, and let them naturally get big |
| Sep 5 | 11:10 PM |
| Sara W. | has entered the room |
| Sep 5 | 11:10 PM |
| Peter K. | (that's also the best way for wiki use to get started) |
| Doc S. | DeWayne... Have you talked to Ethan Zucerkman about getting Global Voices involved? |
| Peter K. | vint: BigHook is already in liquid ("infinite fluidity") phase :-) |
| Doc S. | BentHook.org |
| Sara W. | ok, doc. i'm seeing the linking of the 'altruism motive' with BigHookr.org. Maybe more of an hallucination than a vision... |
| Robin C. | has entered the room |
| Doc S. | View paste
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| Peter K. | my suggestion: there are folks who know how to set up infrastructure for small projects (greg, jerry, pete, david i. ...), find them to help |
| michael w. | has entered the room |
| Robin C. | Jerry, I like and support your idea, but it is likely it will have to be informal, but with some enabling mechanism |
| steve k. | Background: http://www.worldofends.com/ http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/8673 1. The Internet is a world of ends. Its means exist to support its ends. 2. The Internet is stupid. Like the unseen mass of the Earth. While it can think of nothing, it supports everything. 3. The intelligence the Net supports, like civilization on the surface of the earth's lands and seas, is where all the value of the Net's world resides. 4. The world we call the Net was -- and continues to be -- made by people, for people, and for what people do. It has a human nature. 5. The Internet's purpose is practical: to support everything people can do for themselves and for each other. Including business. 6. The Internet's nature is also public. That public nature supports countless public as well as private activities. 7. The Internet is made of connections. Those connections are relationships. These may be temporary or enduring, shallow or deep. They are also elective on both (or all) ends. 8. The Internet works to reduce the distance between any two ends to zero - or as close to zero as possible. 9. The Internet works to reduce the cost of connections to zero as well. 10. The Internet is NEA: Nobody owns it, Everybody can use it, Anybody can improve it. |
| Jerry M. | sounds like it, robin; tx |
| Sep 5 | 11:15 PM |
| Tim D. | has left the room |
| Andrew M. | has left the room |
| Jerry M. | Craig Burton |
| Adam P. | has entered the room |
| Peter K. | |
| Jerry M. | |
| Sep 5 | 11:20 PM |
| steve k. | DOCs comments sound like another angle on david's redds comments - we lack the language to describe/conceptualize complex systems like the Internet, etc... so we use inapproriate terms and strangely enough, fail to understand |
| Sep 5 | 11:25 PM |