← | Today, September 10 →
| Sep 9 | 10:10 AM |
| Judi C. | Happy (and auspicious) 9/9/9 |
| Sep 9 | 11:25 AM |
| Jon L. | We're getting it together here. |
| Judi C. |
|
| Jon L. | Not me. I never use wifi when I'm sleeping. |
| Sep 9 | 11:35 AM |
| David I. | hello |
| Jon L. | Hola. |
| Sep 9 | 11:45 AM |
| Jon L. | There we are. |
| Sep 9 | 11:55 AM |
| Rick | stretch that screen |
| Sep 9 | 12:05 PM |
| Judi C. | Vint Cerf: "Power corrupts, Powerpoint corrupts absolutely." |
| Judi C. | For people in the chat room: Please click the little speaker to OFF. Speaker is in the upper right corner ofr browser screen |
| Sep 9 | 12:50 PM |
| Display | I think we have it right now. |
| Sep 9 | 12:55 PM |
| Judi C. | Thank! |
| Jon L. | Wow, my screen's dirty. |
| David I. | ok lessee if this works |
| David I. | wow I wish could see my notes for intros . . . |
| David I. | just the physical stuff |
| Sep 9 | 1:20 PM |
| FrankP | Judi...are there? Anyway, hello! |
| Jon L. | I think Judi's inside David's Mac. |
| Sep 9 | 1:25 PM |
| ArtKleiner | My screen is dirty too. |
| Judi C. | Hi Frank! |
| Judi C. | I /am/ hiding inside David's Mac. |
| Judi C. | looking up at the wooden ceiling. |
| Sep 9 | 1:30 PM |
| Judi C. | Art, I cleanedr screen from the inside, but the outside... can't reach it. |
| FrankP | sounds vaguely druiduic al |
| FrankP | druidical |
| Judi C. | For people in the chat room: Please click the little speaker to OFF. Speaker is in the upper right corner ofr browser screen |
| FrankP | check |
| ArtKleiner | My screen is clean from the inside out |
| ArtKleiner | And my speaker is off. |
| Jon L. | I cleaned my screen! |
| Sep 9 | 1:35 PM |
| dweinberger | tap tap, is this thing on? |
| dweinberger | yup |
| Judi C. | Hi David, Hi Doc. The cluetrain has arrived? |
| dweinberger | woo half a who! |
| Jon L. | Cluetrain 2: Bighook 2009 |
| dweinberger | Yeah, we can take Bighook with half our authors tied behind our backs! Bring it on! |
| dweinberger | Notch: Good name for a folk band |
| Ben t. | For the record, the full name was Ben the Frog... |
| Judi C. | so noted (and listed properly in the right column) |
| Sep 9 | 1:40 PM |
| AGoldmanISP | ocean acidification |
| enoss | david w, I now have a mental image of with chris onr back! |
| Jon L. | ouch |
| wseltzer | is it possible globally to disable the "ping" sound? |
| enoss | yes. sound is in the top right |
| Judi C. | no, sorry. People in the chat room: Please click the little speaker to OFF. Speaker is in the upper right corner ofr browser screen |
| Jon L. | Thanks, Judi. |
| Nurture G. | Got it Judi. Thanks. And huge waves amazing one. |
| enoss | I will only search for cisco routers on google henceforth |
| Jon L. | I'll subscribe to cable when I get home. |
| FrankP | smartmugs nite |
| FrankP | unite |
| FrankP | farging eee keyboard |
| Sep 9 | 1:45 PM |
| Jon L. | Lost access. |
| Nurture G. | David's terrific attention to detail - the 3 minute card even has correct pronoun (she) |
| Jon L. | Testing |
| dweinberger | Awaiting the results of JonL's test. |
| enoss | funny, mine says "she" too |
| Sep 9 | 1:50 PM |
| Jon L. | JonL's test worked. Just seeing a message saying "message wasn't sent." But msgs are appearing. |
| AGoldmanISP | e-mail dated Sept. 8 |
| AGoldmanISP | if're looking for the invite, it came Sept. i8 |
| AGoldmanISP | Sept. 8 |
| Jon L. | I thought the AI detected that my messages were frivolous and rejected them. |
| Nurture G. | Keeps saying "Sorry this message wasn't sent. may have lostr internet connection. Try again." |
| dweinberger | I'm getting that msg too, for msgs that were in fact posted. |
| Jon L. | dweinberger: it's the cranky AI. |
| wseltzer | but no phishing |
| David P. | Phishing Polls would be useful, too |
| Steve K. | huzzah! good to be here. |
| Judi C. | Jean, may be trying to send at the same moment that everyone's machine is reloading. Just a guess |
| Jon L. | (Bows to Gardner) |
| Sep 9 | 1:55 PM |
| Judi C. | Tom F, invite was sent. If anyone needs special attention, plz email me: judic@manymedia.com |
| dweinberger | huzzah to gardner |
| Nurture G. | gratitude Gardner! |
| Judi C. | People in the chat room: Please click the little speaker to OFF. Speaker is in the upper right corner ofr browser screen |
| Nurture G. | Judi, I am a pretty lucky gal, but it happened repeatedly? And others had that too. Last message went through fine. |
| Judi C. | yes, JonL is experiencing same thing |
| Anders | Hope the lobster is still ON |
| Jon L. | I'm no longer seeing that problem here. |
| Doc | IsenSchwag! |
| Doc | Ding? |
| Rick | |
| Doc | We should buy that and give it to david |
| Jon L. | (Bows to David for mugging all attendees.) |
| Judi C. | sssh, Rick, it's a secret |
| Rick | mere conduits |
| Doc | 1 is king. No, 0 is king. |
| Rick | flomax! |
| dweinberger | isn't separating the drink from the device also known as "drinking"? |
| Sep 9 | 2:00 PM |
| Rick | deep beverage inspection |
| Judi C. | that beverage system is intelligence at the edge |
| dweinberger | IsenSpritzer |
| Jon L. | Local food ++++ |
| Nurture G. | Second that - ++++ Local food |
| Steve K. | slow food site willow is pretty involved in this http://www.slowfoodusa.org/ |
| Steve K. | good organization - not too many food nazis |
| Jon L. | dweinberger: The lamb ate vegetables. Okay for a vegetarian. |
| Doc | Did it die a natural death? |
| Judi C. | not yet? |
| Sep 9 | 2:05 PM |
| FrankP | check out slow money too http://www.slowmoneyalliance.org/ |
| dweinberger | Doesn't that mean I am also allowed to eat vegetarians? |
| Nurture G. | Are going to their event in Santa Fe, Frank? |
| Doc | So we might want to get the swine flu early. |
| FrankP | nope... not santa fe for me this year |
| dweinberger | (BTW, the last time Isen predicted a disaster, it was Sept 8, 2001, and he said "War is coming. I don't know what it means, but I feel it." I am not making this up.) |
| wseltzer | shots for all, included in the swag? |
| Steve K. | best swine flu strategy may be to get it early before it gets resistant to drugs |
| Rick | should we all fist-bump our greetings the rest of the week? |
| Jorge | 30,000 people die from flu in the USA every year aneyhow. H1N! is not more deadly that regular flu... |
| FrankP | gonna mutate anyuway |
| AGoldmanISP | at the first stupidnet f2c we had a talk on peak oil, and prices have skyrocketed since |
| FrankP | WTF? |
| Nurture G. | Yeah, that one. |
| dweinberger | Thanks for playing! |
| dweinberger | Gardner is doing the Vanna. |
| Sep 9 | 2:10 PM |
| AGoldmanISP | + FP |
| Rick | don't quote steve kamman, and i quote |
| Jon L. | Unless can give him a better job. |
| Steve K. | very open to a better job if anyone is offering BTW. |
| Rick | but don't quote him on it. |
| Sep 9 | 2:15 PM |
| Steve S. | he's gives good back channel also |
| Jon L. | Berkman Center ++++ |
| dweinberger | wendy's "did a lot of work with the berkman center" = one of the original forces and continuing spirits there |
| dweinberger | she also plays poker. That is a warning. |
| dweinberger | I'd like to be a register Insultant(tm) |
| AGoldmanISP | anyone who's here is by definition not retired |
| AGoldmanISP | groucho: "i was born at an early age" |
| Sep 9 | 2:20 PM |
| Steve K. | I would never belong to a club that would admit me as a member. my favorite groucho quote |
| Rick | yay Nathan; great job with OneWebDay. |
| dweinberger | OneWebDay.org Sept 22 |
| dweinberger | Founded by ex-Big Hooker Susan Crawford |
| Nurture G. | Yeah! We will be celebrating in Chicago! |
| dweinberger | and sort of founded AT BH |
| Steve S. | ahhh, I remember pruning the wikipedia and handing out free gold in azeroth on the first One Web Day. |
| Jon L. | We're celebrating OWD in Austin, too. |
| Jon L. | I always wanted to go to the Azeroth One Web Day. |
| dweinberger | And his secret identity has a secret identity as a blues harmonica player. |
| Sep 9 | 2:25 PM |
| Steve S. | and that secret identity has another even secreter identidy, but have to offer him a car ride from boston to find out :) |
| AGoldmanISP | ditch the lobbyists, keep the copper |
| Ben t. | At least when I hand out free gold, it's hand to hand (or at least pencil to paper!) |
| Steve S. | ahh,'re giving them clues |
| dweinberger | no insults on this board! |
| AGoldmanISP | partnerships are a big part of the stimulus, because the cash cannot go to for-profits |
| enoss | is there an azeroth OWD? |
| Sep 9 | 2:30 PM |
| Steve S. | I ran one on my realm, but it was before WK |
| Steve S. | but, good idea maybe joi could open a a door ... |
| AGoldmanISP | backhaul and free peering |
| njames | "the cash cannot go to for-profits" - didn't ARRA section VI stipulate that private companies could apply, but NTIA would have to determine that the proposed project was "in the public interest" |
| AGoldmanISP | true -- the details on that is that we're waiting to see what does and what does not get funded in round one, and which exceptions are allowed |
| dweinberger | Wow. That's $7B per G ! |
| njames | and, sure, anyone from Azeroth can organize OWD activities. I just don't know that many people there :) |
| Sep 9 | 2:35 PM |
| Steve S. | true, the gnomes are taking over |
| Steve K. | if a magnetron walked up and bit me... |
| Doc | I get rid of my computer for up to five minutes at a time. |
| Rick | i'd like to blog about not using my computer anymore. |
| Nurture G. | I will put down the computer as long as I can still have the phone, right? |
| AGoldmanISP | visualization of data is important -- the whole U.S. govt is putting data online, and most of it, at present, is not usable. |
| Sep 9 | 2:40 PM |
| Jon L. | Austin first, Azeroth later. |
| dweinberger | Ah. Just stopped using my computer for 37 seconds. Still a little shaky. |
| dweinberger | But I gotta say I feel cleansed |
| enoss | today's big USG identity announcement may open some of that data up |
| enoss | I am shaky hearing about david not using his computer for 37 seconds |
| dweinberger | (props to Andy. Amazing.) |
| AGoldmanISP | I think he was thinking about using it during that 37 seconds |
| Jon L. | My computer starting humming a song when I hit the Omega Institute page. Better get the earbuds. |
| Rick | "augmented reality." I call it Washington, DC. |
| Jon L. | Thinking about IP packets and dating. |
| AGoldmanISP | cellcos are not the best network |
| Nadia E. | Did Steve say dating sites or something else? |
| AGoldmanISP | yes lavalife was a dating site, a lot of mobile |
| Nadia E. | thnks |
| Jon L. | SWM with passionate packets... |
| Ben t. | A service that allows to date sites. How cool! I wanna date cnn.com ! |
| Rick | Voice Glue + Dating Sites = Sticky Situations? |
| Nadia E. | Sticky sites |
| Sep 9 | 2:45 PM |
| dweinberger | Lavalife kept matching Steve up with himself. Hence the two phones. |
| Sep 9 | 2:45 PM |
| dweinberger | martin geddes, for those out of name sign range |
| Judi C. | Thanks DW, here's the full list: http://isen.com/bighook/2009/participants.html |
| Steve K. | martin Geddes - "I grew up as a geek" bu I got better? |
| dweinberger | "Seduced by BT": First book in new Harlequin Business Romance line |
| AGoldmanISP | geddes' now dormant blog has the great name telepocalypse |
| Ben t. | Although he occasionally posts about how stupid service providers can be in selling services... |
| Jon L. | Martin inspired F2C |
| Herman (. | two sided business model is the term to google for |
| David P. | coevolution quarterly ++ |
| David P. | how many here subscribed? |
| Judi C. | Jon, so did! |
| Sep 9 | 2:50 PM |
| dweinberger | "companies that are confused about the web" is the expansion of the contraction "companies." |
| AGoldmanISP | pwoer to the ppl martin http://www.telepocalypse.net/archives/000968.html |
| dweinberger | "weblogsky": another awesomely-named blogs in the room |
| Jon L. | Some think it's "Weblog Sky." *8^) |
| Jon L. | Companies confused about the web = most companies, so there's a lot of work to do. |
| Jon L. | (I do wish I had been lead scientist somewhere, or possibly lead guitar.) |
| AGoldmanISP | further reading for after the conference? |
| enoss | speaking of social value, for those who haven't seen it check out this brilliant bit by dweinberger http://noss.org/copyright |
| Doc | "An infrastructure has to be non-rival for some range of demand." |
| FrankP | non-rivalrous infrastructure gives us free elevator rides! |
| Nadia E. | until people breathe or breed? |
| AGoldmanISP | enoss: that geist guy in Canada is pretty good on copyright too |
| Doc | Things that are congestable, but not congested, are partially non-rival. can maintain it as a non-rival resource as long as it doesn't become congested,." |
| Jon L. |
|
| FrankP | are elevator lobbies congestable? |
| AGoldmanISP | wwhat if it's a bridge to nowhere? |
| Sep 9 | 2:55 PM |
| wseltzer | is rivalry what distinguishes infrastructure from platform? |
| Jon L. | It isn't nonrival. |
| Nurture G. | Are we jumping into discussion now? |
| Ben t. | It's a nightmare! |
| Doc | |
| FrankP | there's a queuing theory thing here |
| Rick | my girlfriend in college wanted to date someone else too; she called it being "partially nonrivalrous." |
| dweinberger | infrastructure as tech or infrastructure as part of the national infrastructure? |
| FrankP | better nonrivalrous than nonfrivolous |
| Doc | "It is an infrastructure at all times, if for some material range of demand it can be shared without rivalry. Doesn't mean it has to be sharable at all time, merely a lot of time." |
| wseltzer | *wonders if this discussion is becoming rivalrous* |
| AGoldmanISP | I think it just needs to be designed to be shared. |
| Nadia E. | Does the term "infrastructure" have any particualar use? |
| dweinberger | exactly |
| AGoldmanISP | nadia: I think that there's an ideal about managing shared goods so that they are not destroyed to the harm of all |
| dweinberger | i don't understand what hangs on that "infrastructure" discussion. |
| FrankP | @naduia - it does describe a class of investments |
| David P. | the ARRA wants to fund "infrastructure" - it's a 10^9 $ word |
| AGoldmanISP | infrastructure is one thing that we share |
| dweinberger | and we share it even when we share it so much that it's congested. |
| Nadia E. |
|
| Doc | "Infrastructure" is a subject but not a field.It did not appear in any dictionaries until the 1970s, when it migrated over from military uses. Encyclopedia Brittanica, last I looked, had no entry for it. |
| AGoldmanISP | it is different from the atmosphere but the atmosphere is also destroyed by the misuse of it and the commons |
| David P. | ARRA = cash for things other than clunkers |
| Sep 9 | 3:00 PM |
| Steve K. | I worked in mexico mostly lobbying the mexican FCC during 1996-1997 |
| FrankP | Doc - Ithink that's because it is the backend of a lot of compound nouns |
| Steve K. | intersting time. regulators were trying hard, but telmex was incredibly powerful |
| AGoldmanISP | Monterey is the Frontier / Northern New England of Mexico |
| Nadia E. | Does it imply a certain sequentiality, that things have to happen before others |
| AGoldmanISP | Jorge is the Nultys of Mexico? |
| David P. | wikipedia has a definition: Infrastructure can be defined as the basic physical and organizational structures needed for the operation of a society or enterprise, or the services and ... |
| Rick | our conversation sounds more like "inferred-structure," trying to sort out the conceptual inferences from putting stuff in the ground or air to support other stuff. |
| FrankP | it has to be built before it can be used |
| Herman (. | Non-rivalrous <-> rivalrous : different pricing signals needed to make it work. Great but is there an incentive to create scarcity? |
| Jon L. | Jean Russell on Thrivability: http://www.worldchanging.com/archives/010455.html |
| FrankP | absolutely |
| Judi C. | I was judic on the well |
| dweinberger | Doc paid $15 for a sub top The Well and was annoyed they never sent him an issue. (I kid because I love.) |
| Nurture G. | Thank Jon. |
| Sep 9 | 3:05 PM |
| AGoldmanISP | Herman -- is there an incentive to overbuild so that there is no scarcity? Scarcity allows the monopoly to charge for the resource, such as the Martian government charged for air in Total Recall |
| Jon L. | Coevolution Quarterly ++++ |
| dweinberger | http://www.strategy-business.com/ perhaps? |
| Jon L. | Art is into Booz. |
| AGoldmanISP | content with a business model -- tougher than'd think. I think art's is a trend |
| Judi C. | is now 9/9/09 9:09 in Hawaii |
| Herman (. | AGoldmanISP: the lack of that incentive is what worries me as an ultimate consequence of the combination of the definition and classical economic theory |
| Judi C. | One problem with decision makers: they're running things, not living them. |
| enoss | I know a bunch of barber surgeons |
| wseltzer | call off the leeches |
| Doc | |
| AGoldmanISP | thanks for getting up early Judi! |
| Jon L. | Overbuilding only overcomes scarcity of what can be built. |
| enoss | problem is can't get a medical degree in only 2 or 43 years |
| Sep 9 | 3:10 PM |
| David P. | Science (the profession - the people who profess it) is society's infrastructure about a certain kind of knowledge. The US science community is becoming far less of a profession, and more of a set of indentured sharecroppers. |
| FrankP | social media experts and the laying on of leeches... rich idea |
| enoss | I don't really know why it is even an issue as to whether a stupid network is economic |
| enoss | it is WAY more sustainable |
| Nurture G. | social media leeches and the laying on of experts? |
| AGoldmanISP | Bruce K and I would love to look into the ROI on lobbying |
| Doc | Art's quixiotics: ROI on lobbying; if an incumbent can get past its culture, will they find there is a more sustainable business case? |
| enoss | imagine the costs removed. regulatory, legal, sales, marketing, a whole layer of beauracracy |
| Jon L. | What we should do is write the Stupid Executive Test. |
| Nadia E. | wouldnt the costs pop up elsewhere? |
| AGoldmanISP | enoss: tough to tabulate both the total costs and also the total "benefits" in terms of the elimination of competition and change |
| Doc | Dr. Weinberger and I wrote http://worldofends.com in 2003 with exactly Art's second question in mind. |
| enoss | tough to tabulate. easy to know it would be positive. |
| enoss | imagine trying to PROVE any Internet innovation |
| AGoldmanISP | what is the cost of change? |
| Nadia E. | social costs |
| Nadia E. | maybe? |
| Judi C. | AG, the cost of change to an incumbent: if have some, they want it. |
| Jon L. | Yeah, costs in social capital. |
| enoss | the social benefits would of course be large |
| Herman (. | Ask Martin G. on his ideas what extra services could/should be added to a dumb pipe and basis services, how profitable it can be, would be suprised |
| Sep 9 | 3:15 PM |
| enoss | Herman (Citynet): it is one thing to hire martin. it is totally another to listen to him ;-) |
| enoss | when BT listens to him THEN I will be impressed! |
| Jon L. | "People are not stupid, it's just the briefings that are holding them back." |
| Judi C. | Yay Joe! |
| Herman (. | Anders: the PR around Citynet has been part of the (hidden) strategy to get to a particular situation where the incumbent (and the regulator) could jump over their shadow. We are almost there, can explain more in detail for people who are interested. |
| Jon L. | |
| Sep 9 | 3:20 PM |
| Ben t. | Battery dying... Bye! |
| AGoldmanISP | Herman: part of the success had to do with a long term plan? Many independent networks and initiatives struggle to stay alive through the buildout, while under pressure, much of it illegal, from the ILEC. |
| Judi C. | Ben, there are plugs hiding around the walls. Hoper plug is handy |
| Jon L. | Plugs all over. |
| Nurture G. | Ben - there are plugs :) |
| Jon L. | |
| Sep 9 | 3:25 PM |
| Jon L. | |
| FrankP | |
| Jon L. | Bandwidth is good. |
| Jon L. | Jump on BHn if can see it. |
| Jon L. | I.e. if have the N hardware. |
| AGoldmanISP | just google "broadband cowboy" for DH |
| Jon L. | Pervasive FAT pipes. |
| AGoldmanISP | unlicensed has a posse |
| Sep 9 | 3:30 PM |
| Doc | I'm getting 7-10Mb symmetrical on both BH and BHn. |
| Nadia E. | wish DH would hook up Reboot |
| Sep 9 | 4:05 PM |
| Judi C. | David illustrating "re-framing?" |
| Nadia E. | House tour after this session |
| Sep 9 | 4:10 PM |
| Ben t. | I'm on for the house tour! |
| ArtKleiner | Me too - either today or early evening tomorrow... |
| Herman (. | Ditto |
| Nadia E. | me three |
| FrankP | & four, here |
| AGoldmanISP | how many use 100 Mbps in Amsterdam and how many opt for 10 Mbps instead? |
| Herman (. | Majority 30/30 Mbps en 50/50 Mbps |
| Sep 9 | 4:15 PM |
| Rick | symmetry is key |
| Herman (. | People (still minority) start to understand the value of symmetrical = low latency |
| Herman (. | Speed of response is everything |
| Herman (. | Content is something to communicate about :-) |
| FrankP | infrastructure is just a noun looking for a modifier |
| Judi C. | Frank, I think infrastructure is the modifier at this point. Incumbents are the noun. |
| AGoldmanISP | open |
| Judi C. | (a noun that needs to be verb-ized) |
| Nadia E. | we had a long discussion about this term with a commission expert at Reboot |
| FrankP | telco infrastructuralizing |
| AGoldmanISP | stupid? |
| Jon L. | Communications/freedom - transparency? ("Transparency is the new killer app.") |
| Sep 9 | 4:20 PM |
| AGoldmanISP | iphone at&t = fake scarcity |
| Jon L. | David Reed: "I don't blame David Reed." |
| Judi C. | re: AT&T & fake scarcity: http://blogs.zdnet.com/Ratcliffe/?p=429 (good article by Mitch Ratcliffe - @godsdog on twitter) |
| enoss | buffer the iphone slayer |
| Rick | is the bottleneck in the CFO's office? |
| FrankP | ++ |
| Nadia E. | I wanna hear more about the At&T bottleneck thing |
| Jon L. | Truly the stupid network. |
| Rick | "Your world, sometimes delivered." |
| Jon L. | Another argument for transparency. |
| Judi C. | Nadia, suggest check Mitch's article |
| enoss | "we don't dare want our competitors to know our vendor who sells us stuff that doesn't work" |
| Nadia E. | @ Judi :got link? |
| Sep 9 | 4:25 PM |
| Jon L. | Nadia: link posted above. |
| FrankP | Nadia EL-Imam: see above |
| Nadia E. | thnks |
| enoss | I will never alcatel |
| Jon L. | The Mystery Vendor |
| Jon L. | Alcatel, Ericsson |
| Judi C. | Problems with the chat: judic@manymedia.com |
| Judi C. | problems with the network, talk with Dewayne (who's in the room with) |
| AGoldmanISP | |
| Steve S. | Isn't this why David I started BH, to harness our collective brain power to help find solutions to ATT network problems :) |
| AGoldmanISP | + steve |
| ArtKleiner | stupid solutions |
| Sep 9 | 4:30 PM |
| Jon L. | Steve, correct, if AT&T will listen. |
| AGoldmanISP | Andrew O also frequently cited in The Economist |
| Anders | In all fairness, the vendors are under a lot of pressure to design around walled gardens etc. if listen with their desingers and chief technologgists get a different story |
| FrankP | I hope andrew has a section on regulatory control of robber barons |
| Jon L. | Read Andrew's paper (from the readings) in transit. Really excellent. |
| Robin | Thanks Judi! |
| AGoldmanISP | Rick's job = making it tough for the phone company to be a monopoly |
| Herman (. | |
| AGoldmanISP | the FCC doesn't need engineers therefore they don't believe that smart radios exist |
| Herman (. | that's one of the papers of Andrew |
| enoss | weinberger on reed on spectrum http://noss.org/spectrummyth |
| Sep 9 | 4:35 PM |
| Herman (. | can upload the digital versions or links? |
| Steve S. | the cover isn't colorful enough |
| Judi C. | Rick: request above to please upload links |
| Rick | will do |
| Rick | |
| Sep 9 | 4:40 PM |
| Rick | |
| Rick | |
| Nadia E. | Rick: is it ok to share the link to the pdf on facebook? |
| Judi C. | Nadia, these links will not work outside of this room |
| Judi C. | If allowed,'ll need to download the doc then share from another site |
| Rick | (third paper is on broadband policy, influenced greatly by Brett Frischmann, Barbara Cherry, and Andrew Odlyzko) |
| Rick | sure nadia |
| Nadia E. | mmm thats what I had in mind |
| ArtKleiner | "Every single person in the US who wants fiber to the home can have it without government subsidy - economically - believe it or not" - TIm Nulty |
| Judi C. | so it must not be the fiber, but service to the fiber that's the problem? |
| Nadia E. | thnks |
| Sep 9 | 4:50 PM |
| Doc | Question for the Nultys... What will be selling to customers... raw bandwidth, "triple play," or something else? |
| dweinberger | sorry to miss so many introductions!! I had a good excuse, but I'm still sorry. |
| Judi C. | + Doc: raw bandwidth isn't all that useful unless there is some access to the Internet |
| Doc | By raw bandwidth I mean Net connectivity. |
| Doc | The problem with the Net offered as a "service," is that too often it's crippled by the carriers. |
| AGoldmanISP | enoss also works with smaller companies than many here do |
| Jon L. | If this was Texas, bigcos would buy legislation to squash the community network. |
| Herman (. | @ Benoit: Alcatel changes coincide with Ben Verwaayen? |
| Sep 9 | 4:55 PM |
| Robin | it isr fault Dewayne. Be more demanding. Please. |
| Ben t. | Herman (Citynet): More or less. There was a need for a marketing message change with the change in management. I also think there was a realisation that they were cutting themselves from half the market by being the "incumbent" guys. |
| FrankP | Jon Lebkowsky: so this is an entry point to lobbying ROI analysis? |
| Judi C. | with Dewayne on the west coast, and the Nultys on the east, any chance it'll meet in the middle? |
| Steve S. | last month I noticed comcast internet felt fast. I ran speedtest and found they had upgraded me to 25 down and 8 up. Without telling me. And it is getting fast enough for many things that I do. two way "HD" skype video is crystal clear and fast for example |
| Jon L. | FrankP Good idea. |
| Steve S. | oh, ps without charging any more |
| AGoldmanISP |
|
| AGoldmanISP | |
| Jon L. | Judi C: we have a couple like them in TX, too. |
| Judi C. | ooh, the new triple play? |
| Jon L. | All three coasts! |
| AGoldmanISP | L Nulty: VT regulators make it possible; muni illegal in 17 states |
| Judi C. | (sigh. not my island(s) yet.) |
| enoss | I am not at all surprised |
| Sep 9 | 5:00 PM |
| Herman (. | Will the performance of Docsis not force phone companies to invest in fiber? |
| enoss | what is not evil is both a good question and easy to answer |
| Doc | Fight the sin, not the sinners? |
| AGoldmanISP | Herman -- no because the copper covers more land area than the cable. So the phone company only invests in fiber in high class residential areas |
| Herman (. | Ah. In NL it is almost equal, cable is a little less |
| enoss | desperate is a good description |
| Jon L. | I thought telcos had a lot of dark fibre? |
| enoss | it just is experienced by the customer as evil |
| AGoldmanISP | AO: Google envy |
| Steve S. | the interstellar colony ship has de-evolved during the centuries in transit |
| Judi C. | I'm organizing a TEDx out here |
| dweinberger | Robin is also one of Time Mag's 100 Most Influential this year |
| enoss | thanks to robin we have metal mugs! :-) |
| Sep 9 | 5:05 PM |
| Judi C. | btw, if anyone has travel plans to HI in late October, please let me know? |
| Jon L. | Judi, Worldchanging was funded early on by Ed Burtynsky's TED grant. |
| Jon L. | JADP |
| enoss | must read by robin http://www.wired.com/autopia/2009/05/the-g… |
| Doc | DOCSIS in practice (at least with Comcast and Cox, the two I know a bit) is HFC: hybrid fiber coax. They bring fiber deep into the last mile and then leverage existing copper the rest of the way. The issue for them is debugging their legacy copper, plus bothering customers to replace old cable modems. |
| Jon L. | I'll come if I can speak at our Ted. |
| Jon L. | er, Ted. |
| Judi C. | wishing we had Zipcars out here... |
| Judi C. | JonL, are on. |
| Doc | |
| AGoldmanISP | DSL vs. carrier pigeon in South Africa http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/DSL-Vs-… |
| njames | Someone was wondering where Sascha is. This just came through my inbox: |
| njames | |
| AGoldmanISP | CALEA makes mesh networking illegal 00 not that the law has shut down Meraki yet |
| dweinberger | "OTI Director, Sascha Meinrath, Testifies at FCC Workshop on Broadband Consumer Context" |
| AGoldmanISP | Go Sascha M! ""Policy-making has continued under a self-imposed veil of ignorance," challenged Sascha Meinrath, Director of the New America Foundation's Open Technology Initiative at today's Federal Communications Commission workshop on Broadband Consumer Context. " |
| Jon L. | Good for Sascha! He's doing god's work. |
| dweinberger | OMG, what DOESN'T calea make illegal?? |
| Scott B. | it is too simple to say that CALEA does that - it sets |
| Herman (. | I have seen myself small (municipality owned) HFC networks that have been evolving according to a strategic plan. The plan takes 6-8 years. The endresult is...a full Point-2-point fiber network, at a cost lower than building a new network. Topology and architecturally equal to our deplayment in Amsterdam. They have been using their cashflow wise. |
| Scott B. | a set of requirements that mesh makes it hard to meet but not impossible |
| Jon L. | "The government's job is to be creating platforms for participation." Want to take that home. |
| dweinberger | OMG, what DOESN'T calea make hard not meet a set of requirements?! |
| Doc | "when we build the smart grid and the smart cars with proprietary technology, we have screwed up." amen. |
| AGoldmanISP | how about fixed wireless on charging stations for electrical cars? |
| dweinberger | Go Robin! |
| Sep 9 | 5:10 PM |
| AGoldmanISP | see Northpoint -- lost the bid for their own business plan |
| Judi C. | Hawaii gov has announced plans to put a network up for charging cars. (we'll see.) |
| enoss | is that open source non-profit and the technology talked about on the net somewhere? |
| enoss | pass the hat!! |
| AGoldmanISP | I think it's about a critical person rather than a critical rule |
| Nurture G. | Robin - do know P2P foundation and Michel Bauwens? |
| Sep 9 | 5:15 PM |
| Doc | Collom Report, after Senator Collum. Main concern was the rise of corporate power. |
| Herman (. | Collom/Collum? |
| dweinberger | can't find a wikipedia article on collom/collum or his report. |
| dweinberger | clearly there was no such person or report. |
| Doc | "ICC is checkin' down the line. I'm a little overweight and my log book's way behind..." - Dave Dudley, "Six Days on the Road" |
| Robin | scott b: tell me offline, or paste in offline, CALEA and mesh piece. I am worried about that. But I want to ignore it until we have built a constituency that will argue for mesh |
| enoss | bill moyer yesterday: I don't want obama to be like franklin roosevelt, I want him to be like teddy roosevelt! |
| dweinberger | nothing in WP about cullum either. Wow. |
| Robin | Jean: Don't know P2P foundation. Make an introduciton? |
| Ben t. | what about on google? |
| Nurture G. | Will do. He just sent me an "All things Open" map last night. |
| Robin | Important to thank David Weinberger for that wired article he wrote about my work. It has been really important in getting me in doors, and in explaining my work easily to others |
| dweinberger | can we embrace as well as extend? It just makes me more comfortable. |
| Scott B. | |
| Sep 9 | 5:20 PM |
| dweinberger | jeez, thank, Robin. Total pleasure and an honor. |
| AGoldmanISP | the key word on mesh networking and CALEA is "hairpinning" -- have to enable the government to record anything on the network without a presence at the edge. therefore traffic has to go through the core. even that's just a brief summary |
| Robin | What if we start with data that they don't want to monitor? boring stuff. Not conversations |
| wseltzer | has calea extended beyond wireline-replacement? |
| enoss | AT&T turned down the .com registry |
| AGoldmanISP | CALEA was a big deal for WISPs http://www.wispa.org/calea/WCS/ |
| Robin | A senior Cisco exec said at a very important meeting I organized at USDOT "I would never use a credit card on an open source mesh" |
| Robin | Then 7 comments later, Michael Bletsas replied, "the internet is an open source mesh" |
| enoss | this stuff? |
| enoss | please expand |
| Robin | I hear this stuff about guarantee all the time regarding "hard safety" data transmission for vehicles. |
| Steve S. | Robin, this is why end-to-end encryptions has to be part of the technology and part ofr open source initiative |
| Jon L. | TCP/IP |
| Jon L. | The Internet |
| Jon L. | etc. |
| wseltzer | This is why "critical infrastructure" scares me. |
| Robin | Steve S: currently infatuated with Van Jacobsen and content-centric networking |
| Sep 9 | 5:25 PM |
| wseltzer | if "critical infrastructure" means stuff that can be measured to work (and limited to the measurable, guaranteeable) |
| Judi C. | what can be measured can be billed for |
| Jon L. | Belief is just a paycheck away. |
| David P. | how do bill for security (pickr definition) |
| Herman (. | Isn't it the same belief system that created classical economics? Deterministic, reductionist, controllable, "risk-managed"? Like Taleb describes in Black swan? |
| Scott B. | acceptance not belief |
| Robin | I thought GM would go bankrupt. Car companies are just like telcos. They don't see the future |
| AGoldmanISP | commercial real estate mortgages |
| enoss | gm market share has gone down every year since '55 iirc |
| David P. | life insurance companies will go next |
| Jon L. | World's upside down. Implies opportunity as well as catastrophe. |
| Rick | New head of GM = Ed Whitacre (former AT&T CEO) |
| Nurture G. | the breakdowns and the breakthroughs.... |
| Herman (. | The end of the mindset created by the baby-boom-generation? |
| ArtKleiner | Henry Ford II said, "Americans won't buy small cars" back in 1977. Then they made reality fit their belief as long as they could. |
| Jon L. | The Dilberts are all leaving, forming bootstrap microcompanies, moving into coworking spaces. |
| Doc | "What I worry about is a failed treasury option." |
| enoss | I thought rick was writing an onion headline! |
| Sep 9 | 5:30 PM |
| Judi C. | failed treasury auction: is this related to gold (on paper) vs gold (in metal form)? |
| Doc | "That's whan nobody buys our debt." |
| Robin | Eliot: Senior bureaucrats push back on the vision: we can't trust it. We need 99.99999 connectivity, zero latency, etc etc. (this for vehicle communications). Then I say do feel safe inr car withr cellphone? And how long does that take to connect? and are always in connectivity? |
| Nurture G. | the US is too big to fail? |
| ArtKleiner | China is trapped buying our dollars as long as they sell to us more than to anyone else, but that's changing. |
| Rick | “I don’t know anything about cars,” Whitacre, 67, said yesterday in an interview after his appointment. “A business is a business, and I think I can learn about cars. I’m not that old, and I think the business principles are the same.” |
| Doc | Steve: "that is so not going to happen... they are so trapped into buying our dollars" |
| enoss | does he have a drivers license? |
| ArtKleiner | He also said GM sold all its corporate jets. |
| Judi C. | if someone is having a problem connecting to the chat, please ask Dewayne, Doc or Jon L to send me an IM? |
| Jon L. | Whitacres going to insist on charging communities to carry cars on their roads. |
| David P. | we have an information economy, but no one invests in knowledge |
| ArtKleiner | Funny thing is, GM is very successful selling cars in China. |
| AGoldmanISP | innumeracy is a problem we can't count |
| Judi C. | ++ David P |
| Robin | Rick: the idea that the person who built ATT is now going to guide GM -- so sadly funny. ATT also is a dying business model. So clearly Whiteacre won't lead GM to the new future |
| Jon L. | David P. - Because the value of knowledge is difficult to measure with metrics we normally employ. |
| Doc | judi what isr IM? can please re-send an invite to stevekamman@gmail.com my oldinvite has expired |
| ArtKleiner | There ARE some companies thinking in a longer time-scale. Toyota, P&G, some of the Chinese state-owned companies... |
| Robin | My goal is to make carbon expensive and data access cheap. |
| Robin | We need to move from a carbone economy to an information economy |
| Robin | walmart is very innovative. |
| AGoldmanISP | I have speakeasy at home and pay for my IP |
| David P. | privately held companies (not *private equity*) are managing for the long term now. |
| Sep 9 | 5:35 PM |
| ArtKleiner | Some privately held companies, not all. Some publicly held companies, too. All but a few companies are run by "barber-surgeons" who depend on luck rather than an understanding of their business. In their defense, nobody else understands their business either. |
| enoss | it is POSSIBLE (not easy) to be a public company and manage for the long term |
| Jon L. | Greed/legislation vs technology: technology always wins. |
| Steve K. | hahhahhahah! I am back! blood pressure down. |
| Doc | "in the battle between greed and legislation on the one hand and technology that people want to use on the other, the people will win." |
| AGoldmanISP | the nomadic aspect of VoIP killed by E911 regulation and further harmed by taxation |
| Jon L. | I think it's always "some not all." Wonder what's the mix? |
| wseltzer | plenty of media player tech killed off by copyright |
| David P. | the technology doesn't die when the companies fail... |
| Scott B. | e.g. DAT tape |
| Herman (. | The good thing about capitalism is that can be is incompetent as like; bankruptcy will ber reward. The problem can be that society gets hurt along the way, or that the incompetent are protected by law/regulation |
| Nurture G. | Did we get intros from the front row on the west side? |
| Rick | ultrawideband was strangled by the FCC. |
| wseltzer | the average person's access to it dies |
| Judi C. | HI Tel is in bankruptcy now. |
| Doc | Look at Internet radio since the DMCA. From CARP to CRB to SoundExchange doing awful deals with Pandora and CPB (which will backfire), whole industries haven't happened. |
| ArtKleiner | Agree with Herman. |
| dweinberger | Then there's the inverse: All the incredibly crappy products maintained by market strength of their producers. In fact, most products become crappy if they last long enough. |
| Rick | Independent ISPs were shown the door by the FCC in 2005. |
| ArtKleiner | But those who do build for the long term can create great dynasties, both family and corporate. |
| Scott B. | DLECs also |
| Doc | Try to listen to music podcasts. There aren't any for RIAA-copyrighted music. Too hard to "clear rights." |
| Scott B. | oops - CECs |
| Rick | Data CLECs are almost dead for similar regulatory reasons. |
| Scott B. | CLECs |
| Steve K. | Barbara - my metaphor for what scott was saying about how it "doesn't work" a railroad guy will define "working" as know exactly where a train and its load is at every moment of every mile of its trip to city a to city b with absolute certainty of the route and time/distance spans of every segment on that route. In that mindset, a trucking model (where put a guy behind the whell and basically tell him to get to city b however he thinks best) the trucking industry can be proven to "not work" in terms understood by a railroad guy. |
| Tom F. | Let' |
| Sep 9 | 5:40 PM |
| Doc | R. Pepper: do we need a new generation of people with long white robes throwing incense? |
| Sep 9 | 5:40 PM |
| Tom F. | let's not get confused between technology and implementation, or between technology and application. |
| Judi C. | or technology and design |
| Doc | How do we change belief systems by things that work by stealth that can have good inertia? |
| Tom F. | Of course, mesh using WiFi doesn't work -- it takes radios designed to mesh requirements -- . WiMax is of course headed for a similiar ditch. |
| Judi C. | doc: with the right (simplistic yet compelling) story. |
| ArtKleiner | To change belief systems takes several things at once: |
| Nurture G. | http://www.tarothermit.com/pope.htm - the guys with the robes and incense |
| dweinberger | "wifi is conversations"? |
| Herman (. | History shows remarcable agility of belief systems, if the old one has been eroded form within because it is only sustained by inertia. |
| Scott B. | wifi might work if the radios were better (far too lose) |
| ArtKleiner | 1. Examples where the disbelieved thing happens and works. |
| Herman (. | (sorry, jetlag screws up my spelling) |
| ArtKleiner | 2. A theory of why it works that holds up. |
| enoss | WHEN WHEN WHEN! |
| ArtKleiner | 3. An action plan or path where can say, even to an incumbent, "Here's how can try it out safely." |
| dweinberger | Nice, ArtK |
| ArtKleiner | 4. Enough other people who believe in it to trigger a Kuhn-style paradigm shift. |
| Steve K. | FYI my problem with campfire may have been because I did not tick the "I agree to the terms and conditions" box |
| Steve S. | Markus is doing the same thing to internet dating http://www.plentyoffish.com |
| Herman (. | ArtKleiner. Disbelieved = "common wisdom", the stuff the general public is taught |
| enoss | me to doc today: "let's do the craigslist of telecoms in that few people, highly profitable, wealth disintegration for incumbents, massive wealth creation for everyone else!" |
| Jon L. | I don't think Craig sees it as an accident. |
| dweinberger | So, what valuable lesson have learned from this, Steve K? |
| Doc | Brough: there is an enormous gap between what ordinary folks pay and what the big guys pay. This has a gap for craigs list move. |
| Steve K. | what I love is that people seem to really have a problem with craig newmark not trying to get bigger and add more crap when he is making azillions with only 30 emplyees |
| wseltzer | Steve K, oh, the EULA strikes again |
| ArtKleiner | 5. Discipline to keep doing it again and again the new way until it becomes second nature. And that's the critical part. |
| Jon L. | (Saw Craig on the cover of Wired with an oy vey story on my way here.) |
| dweinberger | The Wired cover story on Craig was pretty nasty, imo. Also, somewhat incoherent. |
| Sep 9 | 5:45 PM |
| Jon L. | dweinberger Why I stopped reading Wired. |
| dweinberger | (I had a long back and forth with Gary Wolf, the author of the Craig Wired story, on my blog.) |
| Jon L. | Recently? |
| dweinberger | the back and forth: http://www.hyperorg.com/blogger/2009/08/27… |
| Jon L. | Found it, thanks. |
| dweinberger | another soul saved by advertising. Sort of. |
| Sep 9 | 5:50 PM |
| FrankP | |
| Doc | |
| dweinberger | |
| Anders | the EC has a fundamental problem with big corp lobbying for them to control R&D funds |
| Anders | on the other hand what is "precompetitive" research? |
| dweinberger | Somewhere there's a municipal bond with Steve K's portrait on it, aging horribly. |
| Anders | I like a table on Telecom & policymaking, why the policy makers interact with the industry the way they do |
| Sep 9 | 5:55 PM |
| ArtKleiner | Disruptive change = "deep insecurity." |
| Doc | Asked what his then-new magazine, National Review, was for (this was in the Fifties), William F. Buckley repled, "To stand athwart history, yelling 'Stop!'" |
| ArtKleiner | Productivity miracle's bad side: productivity rate leapt to 6+% this year. |
| dweinberger | doc :) |
| Anders | soon there are more asian tourist spending in Europe than US |
| Herman (. | Art: the BLS admitted the stats are flawed.. |
| ArtKleiner | Really? I just interviewed Erik Brynjolfsson about them... |
| ArtKleiner | Chinese top 500 companies, for the first time, had higher revenues one month (August) than the U.S. top 500 companies. |
| Steve K. | art/herman - numbers may be wrong but directionally correct. more important isa pretty clear anecdotal sense that a lot of those jobs wont come back. |
| Sep 9 | 6:00 PM |
| ArtKleiner | ...jobs won't come back and production output won't go down either... |
| Steve K. | post this crisis, a lot of companies are going to figure out a lot of te wrinching changes and headcount cuts they have made are permanent. |
| ArtKleiner | ...a lot of companies waste a lot of their money... |
| Herman (. | |
| ArtKleiner | Herman, thanks. Key quote: In other words, if the furniture factory lays off all of the people who make legs, seats and backs, and buys those parts from China, but keeps the few people who do the final chair assembly, the jobs lost to China are called "productivity"." |
| ArtKleiner | But the amount of outsourcing, I gather, actually went down after the crisis. |
| Herman (. | it is in the process, but not yet done |
| Judi C. | FCC: 8, thrivability: 10 |
| Sep 9 | 6:05 PM |
| Judi C. | NetNeutrality: 20 |
| Judi C. | Telcos: 22 |
| ArtKleiner | The trends stay the same, even if the numbers are flawed: Productivity up, outsourcing down a bit |
| Steve K. |
|
| Judi C. | device/content/carriers tussle: 15 |
| Judi C. | infrastructure: 7 |
| Judi C. | Policy & industry/users: 5 |
| Judi C. | giving users louder voices: 12 |
| ArtKleiner | What effect does a step-change in Chinese exports to the rest of the world have on this system? |
| ArtKleiner | Meanwhile it depends on the rest of the world building a middle class, and the Earth can't support that much. |
| Steve S. | I'm going to do the commercial tussle in mobile wireless access tomorrow at lunch for anyone that's interested |
| Steve S. | And yes, Tom F, let's add app writers (and bloggers, etc.) into the tussle and expand the tussle group |
| Steve K. | |
| Steve K. | uploaded my comments. |
| Sep 9 | 6:10 PM |
| Steve K. | art. if the chinese take the $$ they get from us from those exports and just warehouse it instead of recycling it as a purchase of US$ denominated goods, they are just creating a larger store of future re-valuaiton. |
| Judi C. | Steve, Art, the Chinese just announced they'd not be selling precious metals to other countries. (How) will this affect a future re-valuation? |
| Sep 9 | 7:55 PM |
| Jane C. | |
| Sep 9 | 8:00 PM |
| wseltzer | Is anyone up for a run early tomorrow morning? |
| Doc | Elvis is back in the building. |
| Sep 9 | 8:05 PM |
| AGoldmanISP | hi, doc elvis |
| dweinberger | Sure, Wendy, I'm up for a run. How many times do plan on lapping me? |
| dweinberger | Alternatively, I may just stay in my room and hit my knees with a hammer. |
| Nadia E. | wseltzer..yes for run, what time and for how long? :) |
| wseltzer | Nadia: How does 5 miles sound? |
| Nadia E. | googling mile to km conversion |
| wseltzer | (to be timed by all our array of gadgets, of course) |
| Rick | 5 miles is an awful lot of hammer hits for Weinberger's poor knees. |
| enoss | km = .6 miles |
| dweinberger | 5 miles sounds great. How does me being half my my age and two thirds my weight sound? |
| enoss | ok the band needs a name. suggestions? |
| Sep 9 | 8:10 PM |
| dweinberger | band name: Vasectomy |
| Nadia E. | cool. ok 5 miles then |
| dweinberger | band name: Notch. (euphemism for Vasectomy) |
| Nadia E. | what time |
| Rick | Failed Notch |
| enoss | is "what time" a band name suggestion? |
| Nadia E. | How about NIMBY? |
| AGoldmanISP | judi's right, this is big news: http://www.commodityonline.com/news/Gold-i… |
| Nadia E. | hahaha |
| dweinberger | Band name: Crotch Notch. But maybe for a rock-er band |
| Rick | Crotch Notch Botch |
| AGoldmanISP | umababaruma is my favorite word in afro-brazilian music |
| dweinberger | rick lol |
| FrankP | niche notch? |
| ArtKleiner | The Notches |
| FrankP | nachos? |
| dweinberger | there go. AK's got the winner. |
| enoss | where does the whole notch theme come from? |
| AGoldmanISP | noches con notches |
| Nadia E. | notches con nachos |
| enoss | oops. read up the thread and saw the notch reference |
| dweinberger | from isen referring to them as top notch after the first set |
| ArtKleiner | Vasectomy is more of a side notch |
| Jon L. | Top nachos? |
| Steve K. | Woods Hook? |
| AGoldmanISP | k! |
| Jon L. | Ah... band name: Top Nachos. |
| Rick | no mention of Holes, please |
| enoss | snippy and the notches |
| Steve K. | this accordian/harmonica device is awesome. makes me want to smoke gauloises and feel wistful. |
| Sep 9 | 8:15 PM |
| dweinberger | The Wistful Gauoloises |
| enoss | I can picture in a beret steve |
| Rick | so can his mom |
| Jon L. | The Smoky Clovers |
| Herman (. | The Olahlah's? |
| FrankP | la vie en steve |
| dweinberger | The Bourgeois Gauloisises: The most Misspelled Band in the World |
| Steve K. | I own a beret - think I actually packed it. will ask willow to bring it down. bought in San Sebastien actually in spanish basque country |
| Jane C. | Avec le bicyclette? |
| enoss | misspellings means domain name sales!! |
| Scott B. | bye bye Brasil |
| Scott B. | |
| Nadia E. | |
| Jon L. | Steve, can we auctionr beret to fund next year's Bighook? |
| Steve K. | you can take my beret when pry it from my cold dead hands.... |
| dweinberger | CNN jabbering heads says Obama's talk will run about 50 mins. Hasn't started yet. |
| enoss | we call them nattering ninnies in canada |
| Steve K. | actually pretty handy in winter. when I do end up looking my age I will at least be able to wear fun hats in public. |
| Jon L. | Will Obama wear a beret? |
| dweinberger | no, but O will be smoking a Gauloises ... probably the biggest political sin possible in America |
| Steve K. | imagine obamas ears stickout out from under a beret? glenn beck would post that every night |
| FrankP | new frame for green beret |
| Jon L. | Michelle tear him a new Gauloise. |
| Nadia E. | really like the instrument shes playing, anyone catch what its called? |
| dweinberger | a blow pianer? |
| FrankP | melodion?? |
| Sep 9 | 8:20 PM |
| dweinberger | that was lovely. |
| Ben t. | melodeon |
| Robin | I love Brazilian music |
| Ben t. | nope, melodica actually. sorry for the confusion. |
| Robin | You become cool just listening to it |
| Robin | no need for a beret or a Gauloise |
| Jane C. | Obama is being shown live on BBC.co.uk now |
| Ben t. | |
| enoss | I thought that was the window behind me |
| Ben t. | Harmonica with a keyboard. |
| Nadia E. | very cool shaky thingy |
| enoss | now play a maraca and are automatically cool |
| Jon L. | Interesting to have so much great music in a country so small. |
| David P. | Brazil is not small... even by Texas standards |
| Ben t. | Yeah. Brazil, small? |
| Steve K. |
|
| Ben t. | Also, some small countries have very specific musical folklores, like madagascar... |
| Steve K. | 200 million people |
| David P. | 2/3 usa... pretty major |
| Jon L. | Like I said, interesting to have so much great music in a country so large. *8^) |
| Herman (. | Anders told us Madagscar is twice the size of Sweden...and 3 x the people |
| Sep 9 | 8:25 PM |
| Nadia E. | Yeah but swedens pretty big |
| David P. | Mental models of "other" cultures - very, very distorted. |
| Rick | I heard Madagascar has, like, 18 billon people. |
| Ben t. | what's that standard? |
| Nadia E. | Rick: googleit |
| Jon L. | Hey, mental models of OUR culture are pretty distorted. |
| dweinberger | Burt Bacharach has like 200M people.'re cool just listening to him. |
| David P. | If the entire earth could "stand on zanzibar"... |
| Rick | boo hoo, BH is officially No Longer Cool. |
| Jane C. | Madagascar — Population: 20,042,552 |
| Jon L. | Madagascar should grow up, like Brazil. |
| dweinberger | should have a foot-pedal operated one so the musician can see the keys. |
| dweinberger | can we do a prototype here by Fri morning? |
| AGoldmanISP | Madagascar will always be cool as long as it has lemurs |
| njames | can we add the melodica to the raffle prizes? |
| FrankP | 10,000,000 hungarians in magyar |
| wseltzer | "you can fit it inr laptop case" |
| Nadia E. | yes! i want a melodica :) |
| dweinberger | cockroaches in the flour bag: Worst. Band name. Ever. |
| Steve K. | how did we get to hungarians? |
| Rick | we have a band name! |
| Nadia E. | magyarascar |
| Steve S. | Marilyn has a melodica! |
| Sep 9 | 8:30 PM |
| FrankP | zackly |
| AGoldmanISP | that is syncopa tion |
| dweinberger | faster! faster! |
| Jon L. | The Hungarians fled Brazil, because it was so crowded. |
| Nadia E. | it sound ver cool this melodica thing |
| FrankP | and the food was scarce |
| dweinberger | inhale! inhale! |
| AGoldmanISP | photographers photographing photographers |
| enoss | "Marilyn has a melodica!" GREAT band name |
| FrankP | meta meta |
| dweinberger | it's a heavy meta band |
| Steve K. | now I want to play soccer, eat red meat and tango all night long! |
| Nadia E. | meta melodica |
| Rick | Turned it up a notch! |
| enoss | churasco! |
| enoss | play david!! |
| Nadia E. | Anyone who knws enough tangoto teach a class tonight? |
| Jon L. | I'm going to Brazil to meet my many thousands of new friends. |
| Steve K. | FYI liveblog of obama speech http://content.usatoday.com/communities/th… |
| Jon L. | But no multitasking, right? |
| Steve K. | 8:21 p.m. -- A little health care lesson: Theodore Roosevelt backed national health care. Rep. John Dingell, Sr., whose son remains in Congress, first introduced a health care bill in 1943. The U.S. is the only advanced country with its kinds of problems in the health care system. "I am not the first President to take up this cause, but I am determined to be the last," Obama says. |
| Sep 9 | 8:35 PM |
| Steve K. | 8:30 p.m. -- Obama decries the "scare tactics" surrounding his plan and delivers a money line: "The time for bickering is over. The time for games has passed. Now is the season for action. Now is when we must bring the best ideas of both parties together, and show the American people that we can still do what we were sent here to do." |
| AGoldmanISP | anchor institutions are defined by the Act |
| Jon L. | 32 mil plus 8 mil |
| enoss | $160/person for fiber. where do I sign up! |
| Jon L. | Wonder what the chances are of getting the grants? |
| Robin | reading obama speech. it appears no public option. Instead "health insurance exchange" |
| AGoldmanISP | jon that is, as they say, the money question |
| Sep 9 | 8:40 PM |
| Steve K. |
|
| enoss | and they grabbed opencape.org! nic |
| enoss | nice |
| enoss | it wasn't evil, just not nice |
| enoss | (that last comment was a verizon reference btw) |
| dweinberger | Obama: Public open would be one of the options in the insurance exchange. It'd only be open to those who do not have insurance. |
| AGoldmanISP | enoss -- it's not evil to not build redundant 911? |
| enoss | nope. just not nice |
| Sep 9 | 8:45 PM |
| Robin | The Obama finesse "But an additional step we can take to keep insurance companies honest is by making a not-for-profit public option available in the insurance exchange." |
| AGoldmanISP | middle mile -- thus no homes connected, so not $160/person for fiber -- but it will be an open network |
| enoss | I would run my own last mile, by hand, if there was a middle mile available to me |
| Herman (. | no rights of way limtation? |
| Jon L. | "I will not back down. If Americans cannot find affordable coverage, we will provide with a choice." |
| Jon L. | Rural is definitely tough. |
| Doc | A corollary to the town meeting issue: http://despair.com/meetings.html |
| Herman (. | Are cooperations (like in rural areas used for energy) for the last mile an option? |
| Steve K. | I live a few blocks from the largest concentration of fiber in the boston area (downtown CO) and can ONLY get DSL (no fios, no cable) |
| Steve K. | 8:45 p.m. -- Here comes discussion of the "public option." Obama says no one would be forced to take a publicly funded insurance option, and it must be "self-sufficient and rely on the premiums it collects." It is designed to provide competition for private insurers, and is "only one part of my plan." Challenges critics to promote alternatives that would keep insurance companies honest and lower costs, but "I will not back down on the basic principle that if Americans can’t find affordable coverage, we will provide with a choice." |
| Sep 9 | 8:50 PM |
| Jon L. | Good thinkng re the 20% limit. |
| AGoldmanISP | i agree with the guy sitting to my left |
| enoss | when listen to this, isn't it amazing to think that it is ILLEGAL in 17 states |
| Steve K. | eeek. "we get $ as a % of gross revenues to use for the benefit of the cape' creates a huge incentive for later public officals to maximize revenues (ie. higher rates) to expand this revenue source for their own ends... |
| Steve K. | thatscares me |
| Jon L. | This seems very well thought out. couldn't do it in Texas, sadly. |
| AGoldmanISP | i would not recommend free -- people expect too much of a free service |
| Sep 9 | 8:55 PM |
| Rick | it's more amazing that the incumbents couldn't manage to stop this kind of thing in 33 other states. |
| Jon L. | Actually I think can do it in TX, if it's free. |
| enoss | @steve k: I think it has to be done that way. it beats the alternatives. |
| Jon L. | Austin operates a mesh network but it's low power. |
| Jon L. | Didn't want it to appear competitive with Time Warner and AT&T. |
| AGoldmanISP | ARRA forces to have the anchor institutions on board |
| Steve K. | demotivators are awesome http://despair.com/ambition.html |
| Steve K. | very telco apt http://despair.com/ap24x30prin.html |
| Sep 9 | 9:00 PM |
| Doc | Possible topic or subtopic: unscrewing state law that prevents projects like this. |
| AGoldmanISP | steve, here's the SNL version: http://snltranscripts.jt.org/76/76aphoneco… |
| Doc | OpenCape is being generative for new business, then. |
| Doc | Dale Hatfield: http://www.fiercewireless.com/special-repo… |
| njames | Doc & enoss: in case haven't seen it, my old org, the media and democracy coalition, is taking on the laws preventing municipal service provision in their new report, A Public Interest Internet Agenda, which can get from their home page: http://media-democracy.net/ |
| Jon L. | Doc, we had some activist force in opposition to those bills at one time. In Texas, we managed to prevent worse law, complete prohibition, from being passed. There's still a law that would prevent a municipality from providing and charging for a fiber network, but municipal wireless networks are possible. |
| Sep 9 | 9:05 PM |
| Jon L. | I think it would be worthwhile to have a national campaign similar to our TX "Save Muni Wireless" effort. |
| Jon L. | Or we could get Adina Levin to run for president. *8^) |
| Jon L. | (Adina did much of the work of coordinating the campaign that defeated the anti-muni TX legislation) |
| Jon L. | I may be wrong, but don't think there was ever a well-coordinated national effort. |
| Steve K. | 8:57 p.m. -- Obama pledges to work with Republicans -- but also issues them a warning: "I will not waste time with those who have made the calculation that it’s better politics to kill this plan than improve it ... If misrepresent what’s in the plan, we will call out. And I will not accept the status quo as a solution. Not this time. Not now." |
| Sep 9 | 9:10 PM |
| Ben t. | |
| Doc | I would like to have somebody do a tutorial on pricing of middle mile, backhaul, and the rest of this stuff. What makes $20Mb a good or bad price? What are the first costs of this stuff, and from what do they derive? This has never been clear to me, and I'm sure I'm not alone. |
| Ben t. | |
| enoss | the problem with that doc is that this is a HIGH fixed cost, teenie marginal cost business making any sort of "unit" pricing simply a function of the assumptions make around time and units |
| FrankP | would that high fixed cst be for, ummm.... IMFRASTRUCTURE? |
| Jon L. | Wondering how much pricing is determined by context? |
| Ben t. | A non-vertically challenged version will be available in a few moments. Please excuse me for the inconvenience of having to tiltr head... |
| Sep 9 | 9:15 PM |
| FrankP | OOR EVEN INFRASTRUCTURE |
| dweinberger | but Doc's right: Lots of us would benefit from a breakdown of the costs (fixed and otherwise). Posted somewhere? Infomagraphics? |
| Doc | Yes, but fixed costs seem to vary widely, especially long after the sunk ones are amortized. What are the fixed costs on Stockholm at this point? |
| Herman (. | Not only high cost, but sunk cash. Cash is real, profit is an opinion. |
| Steve K. | eliot - agreed with the corollary that it makes it really easy to overcharge on a per unit basis without it being at all clear because the cost-per unit calculations are so arbitrary and opaque. |
| dweinberger | Frank, sorry but the correct spelling is "inframastructure." |
| Ben t. | At the very least understanding what the intangible costs are (the transit, the aggregation point, etc.) would be nice. |
| enoss | the $20/mb that I mentioned is very different than a home price. it is based upon usage at the 95th percentile which would be quite low in a home context. |
| Jon L. | Will competitive entities reveal their internal pricing assumptions. |
| Jon L. | ? |
| Ben t. | By "intangible" I mean the stuff that's not dependant on where dig. |
| Steve K. | jon lk. asume that they understand them |
| dweinberger | now onto the informal formal part |
| dweinberger | followed by the formal informal formal formal part |
| enoss | I am underdressed |
| Steve K. | first rule of telcos is NEVERY make a real effort to understnad and documentr own costs because the regulator might get ahold of it. so the best strategy is ignorance, |
| dweinberger | only mentally, my friend, only mentally. |
| Jon L. | Steve: not necessarily assuming that. |
| Ben t. | |
| Jon L. | Opacity might be intended to conceal that lack of understanding though. |
| Jon L. | If that's the case. |
| Ben t. | |
| Sep 9 | 9:20 PM |
| Judi C. | all of these guys file forms with the gov. We know how much they're spending. Can't we extrapolate to a per-unit basis? |
| Sep 9 | 9:40 PM |
| Judi C. | Thanks David for allowing me a virtual presence. If anyone is traveling to Hawaii this Oct, please let me know (TEDx on the coming change!). Also doing a television series on sustainability in Hawaii withng adults interviewing experts... |
| Jon L. | Judi, email me about Tedx. |
| Sep 9 | 9:45 PM |
| Doc | Judi, this was great. As always. We need to talk later about The Book. I have an idea |
| Sep 9 | 9:50 PM |
| Judi C. | JonL, check yr email |
| Sep 9 | 9:55 PM |
| Jon L. | Got it, thanks! |
| Judi C. | Boxing, as in BOXing? |
| dweinberger | boxee |
| wseltzer | Boxee |
| Sep 9 | 10:00 PM |
| Jon L. | The Boxee Rebellion |
| Judi C. | |
| AGoldmanISP | nfl? |
| David I. | nfi??? |
| David I. | no f&*( interface? |
| dweinberger | Dewayne's a completionist for ALL OF TV. |
| Sep 9 | 10:05 PM |
| dweinberger | enoss gets bad tv but free health care. Not sure how to weight those... |
| Judi C. | I kinda wonder where he found the extra hours in the day. That's the secret I want to crack... |
| Herman (. | judi can repeatr email for a question? |
| Judi C. | email: judic@manymedia.com |
| AGoldmanISP | 4:06pm Wednesday (HST) - Time in Hawaii, United States of America |
| Sep 9 | 10:10 PM |
| Judi C. | yes, sunset not for about 2+ hours |
| AGoldmanISP | cogent bought psinet to get into the club (of six?) |
| Judi C. | |
| Sep 9 | 10:15 PM |
| AGoldmanISP | judi,'re in _that_ box |
| Judi C. | |
| Judi C. | out my front door a while ago |
| AGoldmanISP | holland is cheapest now |
| Sep 9 | 10:20 PM |
| Ben t. | Now that's just plain mean! (Although the view is not bad from here!) |
| Judi C. | you will get the beautiful morning view way before I do. |
| Robin | Judi: can't make us jealous because we are here at Big Hook where it is really beautiful all the time. |
| Doc | Thanks, Judi. It's interesting to me how, optically, the light inside a rainbow is brighter, more concentrated. |
| Judi C. | Robin, indeed. |
| Jon L. | Financial markets are as hyperrational as human belief systems. |
| Jon L. | (my compact restatement) |
| David P. | Fraud is essential to innovation |
| Doc | From a great book calledr New House, "Your builder is not Bob Vila.r builder is a crew of drunks, ex-felons and misfits who show up on alternate Thursdays." |
| Sep 9 | 10:25 PM |
| Jon L. | Reality... collective delusion. Can see the connection. |
| Doc | "How do we function in a society in which we operate as if reality doesn't exist?" |
| Judi C. | denial as a powerful social tool |
| Jon L. | Pattern recognition would be a better case than pattern assumption. |
| AGoldmanISP | that's why iraq and afghanistan -- no cell towers? |
| Judi C. | the problem of not looking before seeing (pattern assumption) |
| AGoldmanISP | managers of fund firms already do exactly what steve K says, which I guess is where this insight comes from. |
| David P. | Those of us who exhibit Asperger's Syndrome can't deny reality. |
| AGoldmanISP | a computer at the firm initiates 80 percent of trades, and an international network of traders do the rest |
| AGoldmanISP | aspergers = deny people? I'm not fully versed on this |
| Sep 9 | 10:30 PM |
| Jon L. | I don't think this is a bad thing. |
| enoss | once we realize that none of us are good, we will all be just fine! |
| Jon L. | Having transparency and working with what's real is probably a good thing. |
| David P. | Asperger's syndrome is largely a hypersensitivity to fact. |
| AGoldmanISP | enoss -- augustinian |
| enoss | good, should have been "good" |
| Nurture G. | indeed Elliot |
| Jon L. | Resistance is futile. |
| Nurture G. | cultural norms set expectations on what to see |
| Judi C. | but aren't most of us more "gooder" than average? what norms? which culture? |
| Jon L. | |
| Sep 9 | 10:35 PM |
| Nurture G. | "good" is a subjective judgment made from one perspective upon some other with far too little information colored by personal experiences |
| Jon L. | How do define "good"? |
| Jon L. | What Nurture G. said. |
| Steve K. | wireline traffic growth is slowing. from 100% a year to 40%-50%. no crisis. should be maintainable with current levels of spending. wireless data traffic is talked about as over 100% a year. wireless data volumes are currently about the same as voice. |
| Steve K. | I use my wireless datacard in hotel rooms these days - mostly because it is easier to set up vs having to go trhough the hotel web system (not cost, comany pays ofr either, just time) |
| Nurture G. | I would say the singularity is going to save us from our incredible growth, but I fear someone might take me seriously. |
| Steve K. | the thing that will break is the telco business model :-) |
| Judi C. | Steve, data xfer (generally) is estimated to be in the exabytes per month in 7-8 years. |
| Sep 9 | 10:40 PM |
| Steve K. | backhaul is the connection from the tower back into the core |
| Steve K. | big difference between wireless and wireline is there are more competitors in wireless (in at least some countries) |
| Jon L. | Sustainability + social justice + consciousness |
| Steve K. | so the carrier's abilty to hold back demand is much more limited |
| Jon L. | When things are flourishing. |
| Robin | Favorite quote I heard from someone: Plantrself where will thrive. |
| Robin | And conversely, uprootrself from situations where are withering. |
| Sep 9 | 10:45 PM |
| Judi C. | Nice interview, @JonL with @NurtureGirl http://www.worldchanging.com/archives/010455.html |
| Sep 9 | 10:50 PM |
| Judi C. | agreeing. Cultural bias: thrivability assumes that basic needs are met. |
| Jon L. | To what extent would definitions of 'thrivability' vary? |
| Judi C. | JonL, there are three elements of variability in the definition |
| Jon L. | I was think more of variability based on context. |
| Jon L. | Lots more to say about this. |
| Judi C. | that's a fourth element of variability: context |
| Jon L. | What were the other three? |
| Judi C. | sustainability + social justice + consciousness. + context. |
| Steve K. | not getting what connects the end of thrivability to the means of achieving it. |
| Sep 9 | 10:55 PM |
| Steve K. | telcos are still housed in the "utility" group in most investment houses. |
| Judi C. | Their classification doesn't necessarily map to their corporate mindset |
| Judi C. | This is not the first time for this discussion at BH |
| Sep 9 | 11:00 PM |
| Jon L. | Steve K.: in conversations about goals of sustainability, I think the thought is to replace sustainability with thrivability - that the goal should be, not merely to sustain life at some level, but to set the bar much higher. |
| AGoldmanISP | |
| Jon L. | It's a broad concept, just as sustainability is very broad. |
| Steve K. | Not sure I agree with time here. all these companies were privatized right around the time they were really starting toi generate huge cash flows off their already built networks. maybe less true in the US but most countries governemtns realized that selling off these assets would generate huge cash and or returns for cronies or both. |
| Sep 9 | 11:05 PM |
| Steve K. | the latin american telco privatizations werw moslty government cash raising exercises and/or a giveaway. |
| Judi C. | Links above re: CLEC in Minn |
| Herman (. | Agree with Steve: the story is that KPN should have been gone private without the coppernetwork (staying in private hands) but the banks and the mgt turned that over to a sale for 1 Euro... |
| Nurture G. | Thanks Jon. Yes, I would say it is broader....and more likely to be something we can cooperate across diverse interests to strive toward |
| Herman (. | correction: staying in public hands |
| Herman (. | sale for 1 euor to KPN |
| Nurture G. | Thanks Paula!!!! |
| Sep 9 | 11:10 PM |
| Nurture G. | Thank Judi |
| Nurture G. | Much gratitude for andr contributions here. |
| Judi C. | thank Jean for reframing our global needs |
| David I. | David? |
| Judi C. | lost yourself, did you? |
| Sep 9 | 11:20 PM |
| David I. | It's actually Greg Elin signed in as David. Hi all! |
| Sep 9 | 11:25 PM |
| Judi C. | Hi Greg! |
| Judi C. | Have talked with David since this morning? We were trying to figure out how maximized the chat screen to get rid of the "send message" window |
| Judi C. | Clearwire on Hawaii Public Radio now talking about rolling out 4G WiMax very soon. Everyone will need new hardware. |
| Sep 9 | 11:30 PM |
| Judi C. | Will be available in USB! |
| Sep 9 | 11:40 PM |
| David I. | Judi? |
| Judi C. | yes |
| David I. | (Greg): I sent David and Dewayne instructions via email. |
| Judi C. | awesome |
| Judi C. | thanks |
| Judi C. | you are missed |
| David I. | (Greg) Basically, open Campfire in Firefox. Then use key combination "Command +" to make font larger and "Command -" to make smaller. |
| David I. | As page gets larger in browser window, vertical and horizontal scroll bar appear. By combination of resizing fonts with with "Command +/-" and using scroll bars, can get just large font of a few bottom lines of text to dominate screen. |
| David I. | I miss being there. |
| David I. | (Greg) Night! |
| Sep 9 | 11:45 PM |
| David I. | (Still Greg) |
| Judi C. | sleep well. Thanks |
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