Hi Judi

Tussle, tussle where are you?

Elvis has entered the room.

Michael Jackson has entered the room.

another cheer for Dewayne too

Good morning Jane! (I think)

Is it really morning?

Sustaining sounds like more efficient. Thriving is creating more,new, bigger potential.

We're going to need that broadband: YouTube's Bandwidth Bill Estimated At $300M For 2009 http://www.multichannel.com/article/339947…

So sustainability is 1 or 2 Mbps, and thrivability is 100 Mbps, or a Gig?

that sounds about right -- for now.

wait until we get remote calculation-based apps

Sustainable is 1/2 mbps at home, thriving is ubiquituous wires/wireless so you don't think about it any more, it ceases to be a subject of discussion

true public interactivity, not this text-based stuff

Judi! Amazing one - thank you for joining us so early

Jean, loving the generative conversation that you are part of!

*sigh* guilty. apologies. I am deeply interested in companies and work and people and how that all plays out and certainly contributed to that tangent. :-(

thank you Judi. Let's talk next week about thrivability camp

Jon: What is the tussle? What problem were we trying to solve yesterday? We have political, technical, social barriers. Need to put them on the table.

love to, looking forward to it.

thanks, jonl

does anyone have an iphone charger I can borrow?

So maybe sustainability is something like conscious/visible/momentary broadband of things, while thrivability is something like unconscious/invisible/pervasive connectivity of relationships. And The Tussle is how to get from one to the other, given obvious technical, market, social, and political barriers.

Disregarding the paper, I think "tussle" is a good concept to hold in mind.

Nadia- when do you need it?

Doc, it's here: http://isen.com/bighook/2009/ (user: bighook, pwd smart)

beautiful Rick, thank you

Rick: great thought... kind of a koan.

Coders is lawyers!

DPR: He, Brett and DI dislike the tussle paper. Issue around design and power. The rival good is power. Who has the power to use it? Corporations have a lot. The internet has the power to re-shape debates. The hourglass/end to end has re-shaped arguments. Architects want in on that power. Lessig said Code is Law, and architects were more powerful than lawyers. But that's not the thing.

Rick, I wonder if we're at sustainable in the US yet. So many are clueless about the broadband (or connectivity) of things.

njames...now :)

Judi, I think we're nowhere near sustainable.

to me the tussle is the idea that if we get the architecture right, then because code is law, the right decisions will flow from the architecture, and I am beginning to understand why that promise is a problem

Design of, by, or for tussle? what do we really want?

I think the tussles are always there... always conflicting interests to be addressed and resolved.

Judi: Agreed. Too many places in the US don't even have sustainability. One of my thoughts is that we need ubiquity of broadband access, before/at the same time we reach for bigger connections.

DPR: Should it be design of, for or by tussle? it's interesting that you might be able to design tussle, even though E2E did that, but not by intent. Design by tussle is obvious. What Brian Arthur wrote his book about. The Net was a great example of finding interop. Design for tussle is the arrogance of techies thnking they can hack legislators.

Jon asked what problem we were working on, perhaps it's relevant to repeat the first sentence from the intro to this year's BH "The theme of BigHook2009 is "The Tussle," i.e., the tussle between market efficiency (or the profit motive, monetizability, etc.) and fairness (or public goods, or public interest)."

We were touching on tussle between market efficiency and fairness yesterday afternoon

Architests, economists/business people, and policy people are tussling.

DPR: Three groups are arguing for ppower: architects/technologists, economists and business people, and legislators.

JonL, noted that "the little people" aren't even at that table

Judi: right, no leprechauns anywhere. :)

Rick's line of thinking leads (I believe) to saying that the Broadband Initiative should define BB lower (e.g., 768kbs) IF that will get more people connected sooner, rather than defining it higher if that will impede the rollout. It's more important to be connected than to be connected at a high speed.

Brett: law, tech and money. hate the word tussle in that it conflates all the interesting into a single box.

he just said "tussle".

pip coburn made a similar comment about hating the word "execute" because execution is far more than something you just "do"

Judi C.: and I would include civil servants in that group of "Little people"

So one question is whether we can build networks that are not just sustainable (short-term money-making and siloed) but thrivable (longer-term viable and generative).

You may hate the word, but it does describe something real, that we have to engage.

Awareness Is Everything http://www.fastcompany.com/blog/jamais-cas…

Rick: networks of people fits into that pussle, no?

The buddhist in me wants to point out that words never suffice.

that scrappiness is also true of small companies vs big

then go with the feeling?

dw: I'm nervous about trying to peg precise definitions of broadband based on metrics. If we can get everyone in the country on an always-on connection, with appreciably more bandwidth that 56k, then 768k or even lower might be an acceptable definition. But that unfortunate reality for 5-20 percent of the population shouldn't hold us back from tackling much bigger visions of the capabilities of broadband.

Would be nice to see Jamais at Bighook.

nadia: Yes, networks are people, aren't they? Modems and fiber are just proxies.

Robin: we need an ecosystem that creates love and diversity. We as a society has done lots of lockdown making it hard to try anything new. A meadow is a good metaphor where we can find niches in which to experiment. Ability to change the content of this meadow in the dynamic world we live in. Developed countries have codified the status quo. Developing countries are good at pulling every scrap of resource, but lack education and other resources. From an econ perspective, the status quo is fine for 98%, but too much of the 2% is locked down. The meadow is there. In transport in particular, you're going to have 200 million to do it. We need to opportunities to allow and enable excess capacities for moe innovation and experimentation.

So one question is whether we can build networks that are not just sustainable (short-term money-making and siloed) but thrivable (longer-term viable and generative).

Rick, 1) not everyone wants to be connected, 2) not everyone wants a fast connection, and 3) some people fear the Internet of things. Unknown. Scary.

Can we KEEP the thrivable network?

David I: we built rick's network. can we keep that network.

IP on everything, or API on everything.

love it Jon: API on everything

Network is ultimately the people and the long term relationships (David R)

I should write that paper.

Even though I couldn't begin to create an API.

Here's the tussle, to me: What succeeded -- the internet -- did so precisely because it does not itself make money. It also has its own laws. It is Code is Law, as lessig said. It was an Architect's world, but it worked for everybody. Enormous amounts of money has been made *because* of that network, though not *with* it. Mistaking the pipes for the Net has led to a focus on those who do make money with the medium but not the Net in itself.

can we construct safe havens for meetings and making of networks of people who need to be connected in order to affect change?

love that. being intentional about the end-state is really hard

Opportunity for evolution.

rick, agreed. There's also the possibility that a ubiquitous always-on 768 will bring about its own emergent thrivable ecology.

+++ Jon, yes, write that paper. The API will come later.

Continuous invention and creative destruction.

+++ Robin

CHAUNCEY?

The Constant Gardener. Powerful metaphor. We can be gardeners, we can't be THE gardener.

DPR: Constant Gardener a better metaphor than evolution.

Nadia, I think security needs to be more facilitated for safe havens

as it is, we have bottlenecks instead

facebook is evidence of its own success

Roxanne: more of "the net" is a set of walled gardens. Tom: that's not succeeding.

Judi C: can you explain further, Im not sure I understand

Garden metaphor misses the point I'm trying to make. Meadow is the garden. The question is what to plant? who decides? Some people need to be able to try new seeds. Some will work and some won't. But let some people be able to try new things because they see a new opportunity that the rest of us have missed.

If we have meadows, even really large ones, we won't find a place to be safe hiding in a corner or even in the company of strangers if there's constant surveillance of the meadows

I think that "the tussle" is one of the key elements that keeps the NET vital and growing. Without adverse conditions at many points there is no evolution. We don't want to turn into a world of lotus eaters.

facebook is a walled garden with limited feature/function, less "goodness" than the net around it. But people subordinate their wants to participate

To Roxanne's point, Scott B made a wonderful point at our lunch group yesterday about apple "moving the browser to the side". E.g. you run the facebook app on your iPhone/Touch, you don't www facebook. Right now this isn't alarming, but if the Apple app store gets extended to macs, and eventually to PCs via iTunes, then significant parts of how people interact with the net could be done via mechanisms other than open standards, with Apple as the gatekeeper.

Carlota Perez: http://www.amazon.com/Technological-Revolu…

Robin++ How to leave the field open for experimentation?

Um. And the US Army?

Steve: I think we'll clearly go there - data driven specialized apps.

Tom: good point. Bad fit to reality also creates opportunity for innovation. exactly

John Miller ++++

A Lerner-Weill collaboration... didn't know such an animal existed.

Kurt Weill ++ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Weill

what's it like to be able to sit there and do that?

Not the future I want... http://r.smartbrief.com/resp/rPuAyZdyDkuCq… : Verizon support platform could be game changer for home networking... As home networking becomes more ingrained in our daily lives, Verizon is working on a range of new network-management technologies designed to take the headaches out of supporting mini-networks. The idea is to create a home-networking platform that is built right into the customer-premises equipment, says Tushar Saxena, Verizon's director of home-networking technologies. http://r.smartbrief.com/resp/rPuAyZdyDkuCq… Billing & OSS World (9/2009)

re: the meadows? http://sinfest.net/comikaze/comics/2009-09-06.gif

The chorus of the song has shades to me of "Never Promised You A Rose Garden." Which reminds me: Pierre de Vries uses the metaphor of the Net as a forest, with the rest of us serving as the forest rangers. One key question is when to let the forest grow organically on its own, and when (if ever) does it need pruning/protection/management.

Judi: yes I see, but I think we can actively create those safe havens if we want

by doing it and at the same time promoting the values in our immediate environments

and I think will require more security of some kind than an "open network"

Im trying to with Wikicrats, and hoping that the Bighook community will get involved

Question is what are the requirements for making a safe haven safe?

David I: Hypothesis.. . that a new set of preconditions will give rise to new forms that make the corporation that we're all tussling with, the rushkoff machine., will eitehr reform or supplant it.

A new set of preconditions will give rise to new forms that may make the corporation that we're all tussling with, the Rushkoff depersonalization machine.... may either transform or supplant it. (David I)

indeed. Perception of safety? some experience (perception over time)?

This community and the internet is enamoured with (and for good reason) with innovation and business that can be done with bits. I too love it. But we have to have different expectations around speed and cost for innovation that is based on atoms.

I love the idea of ocean informatics.

Two guys in a garage have a much harder slower go of making enormous change.

Bait for the Big Hook!

I think its a matter of order of magnitude. Im thinking small; get people together and have them think together and help change things together.

Robin, is being based on atoms because we are not yet at the thrivable stage where the true innovators have freedom to dream big? or something more mundane? ;)

it's an attention market -- excellent

nothing radical, but we can help direct each other to existing hannels and opportunities in our respective fields, existing social networks. But not for "profitability" reasons but for ideological- I want a different world future.

money is just a set of protocols

reasons

Judi: no, that's not my point. Moving bits is much easier than moving atoms. Can be done more cheaply and quickly

Andy: Some bait. Observatories, Informatics, and then Dan Polanza (?) in a coffee shop. Debits and credits were misrepresented by programmers in the first pace. Debits are physical, and while credits are intellectual. Trigger was that there are two aspects. ONe is to do ananalysis that yields 8 different transactions. The other is to build a network that allows individuals to have contracts. currency is time in this model. Goes to the E2E idea. Perhaps this is another model. A secure robust network infrastructure, allowing individuals to build networks with secure contracts, self-represented.

Bank of Twitter: No transaction over 140 seconds

No snickering at Lisp!

Promoted, not developed, by Rushkoff.

Palanza.

palanza

carpenter and future nobel prize winners

man people do anything to get 5 free pizzas here

Rushkoff might talk alt currency but MANY have been working on it for a long time

Perception of security is about resting on a solid/ secure foundation, not necessarily to have walls shielding you

Did you notice that the actual Nobel medal we passed around last night smelled slightly of pepperoni?

Local currencies came first. Centralized currency made them "alternative."

Barbara +++++

DW: do you always smell things that hundreds of people have touched before you?

Exactly.

hey, it's not like I licked it!

ok, so i licked it, but just a little.

I had an urge to flip the Nobel medal like a coin.

Robin, I'm not following. How are our expectations based on atoms, not bits?

ewwwwww

Yep Jon. Here is a little post I did to give a window into the edge on currencies: http://nurture.biz/2009/02/currencies-and-wealth/

personhood gives corps free speech, right to lie, and other rights

c'mon, it's a nobel freaking prize! My preeeeciousssssss

Kind of like an OBama campaign, without the Obama

There's a tussle between centralized and localized currency needs. And very hard legislated barriers.

Ah, the Bush Admin...the gift that keeps on taking.

Do companies have a constitutional right to free speech?

Corporate personhood. ----

Should companies have a right to be treated as persons?

Robin, commercial free speech isn't protected as much as other forms.

Can the crowd counterbalance corporate personhood

Judi: I'm not talking about expectations. We are missing each other's points.

@brad THAT is a great idea

it's not enough for the crowd to offer more speech to counter corporate speech. We have to change the ethos so that corporate speech is reviled. Step one: Mockery.

yes. it can. Can we get into HOW we do this?

Corporations are artificial entities, created and dependent on our laws. In 1887, the Supreme Court has been interpreted as saying that corporations are natural persons, with the full protection of the Constitution and other laws. Reverse that Santa Clara case, and corporations lose that unique status. Or, alternatively, create other mechanisms for people to get organized and accomplish things outside of corporate status.

fox news sued for the right to lie and won http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Akre

dweinberger: iphone apps that generate corporate bla bla bla speech?

empire always seek to control networks. Rome-roads; Britain, than US continental expansion: rail, etc.

what is worrying is we will be daling with a highly conservative and free-market wacko fringe judiciary for a looong time

excellent, nadia! And Firefox addons that print corporate speech in shit brown

How is it that corporations end up so far from the goals of the individuals who comprise them? Does something about incorporating distort our goals by making some more or less achievable?

or possibly in light piss hues

hahaha four shades of brown in Swedishspeak

Robin, sorry - I'm missing your point. You see my confusion clearly enough. Downside of not being there this time perhaps.

It's not broad enough. An argument for One Web Day to grow.

(Plugging Nathan)

Trial analogy: Corporations are to humans as packs are to dogs.

Doc, where's the buzz-speak generator? Nadia needs one for her iphone.

How to make the constituency that cares about the Internet more effective?

rarely does astroturfing beat the people

"corporations are people"; so what goes wrong with the people?

The real danger is when corps don't sound like corps but like actual goddam people

Same code since 1995, I think.

Should feral packs of dogs be treated as though they were individual domesticated pets?

wseltzer: I think corportaions are built to keep people who could affect change together apart, by buying them off and eroding the border between individual/ human/personal values and corporate interests

Was originally written in Hypercard.

we need to protect the right of feral packs of dogs to shit anywhere they want

thanks, Jon. Yes, I'm doing a lot of thinking about helping users in general get smarter than aggregating the political will of smart users.

David is talking about the Law Lab.

not on purpose, but that this lies in the nature of corporations

Someone has argued that if corporations truly were people, they would be clinically diagnosed as psychopaths.

It is interesting to thing about how corporation actions differ from those individuals that make them up. There is a rise of new form of corporations that are trying to change this discrepancy. But lots to think about there.

OWD is potentially a great covert political tool.

Sometimes unemployment isn't really unemployment.

... and changing the culture of corps.

If corps are collectives that behave worse than individuals, we're now also seeing collectives that behave better than individuals. Hence, hope. (Hence, not Hobbes.)

ROXanne: Used to fear the death of the big corporation. (Yesterday we did.) Now we're talking about ugly hierarchical corps. Yet what we've created is so effective that the economy changes so fast that bigcos break apart.

Fast, Cheap, Out of Control. Or... Fast. Expensive. Out of Control.

We are going into smaller, more corpuscular types of businesses.

I think we need to say "bigco" instead of corporation

otherwise we are tarring with too broad a brush

Modular businesses that contract with their networks to scale capacity.

enoss: agree

big is not necessarily bad - or moe to the point small is not necessarily good.

NOT TRUE

And yet one implication of the Obama Administration's policies is the near-term survival of fewer, but much bigger, financial institutions.

Or "goddambigco"

great example of bigco vs corporation

I like what Roxanne says. But also think the 90s was all about rolling up small businesses and making them big ones.

Dr. Weinberger in Cluetrain, 10 years ago: http://cluetrain.com/book/hyperorg.html "Fort Business." Great stuff.

some BIGCO

hey I like BIGCO in all caps too

Robin: I think she's saying the 90s are over.

She said post WWII fortress-like method

Robin: in the 90's those were smaller BIGCOs, not small companies

An alternative vision is a world of a few really "Too Big To Fail" corporations, and many many smaller entities.

hyperorg: "Consider this: from the other side of the gulf opened by the Web, virtually all of the structures that management identifies as being the business itself seem to be bizarre artifacts of earlier times, like wearing a powdered wig and codpiece to the company picnic."

"Hyperlinks subvert hierarchy." This is one Cluetrain thesis (again, David's) that has proven out, and will continue to prove. Not that there isn't much to fear.

The Wealth of Networks.

The idea of large corporations dieing out is attractive, but small groups can't build semiconductor foundries, or build effective auto factories.

there are very very few absolutes in business (or life)

Brett: One problem with Benkler's book is broad claims that networks of people will knock big companies out of the ring. He doesn't exactly say that, but that's the assumption. But don't count on the corporate brontosaurs dying off.

admin moment: if you need a new invitation to the chat: judic@manymedia.com

Tom: Of course, at least not now.

theses about giant waves of revolutionary change sell books better than nuanced arguments about how new forms fit into and tend to co-exist with all the old forms.

"bring them to the stadium..." chilling, sort of an echo of Pinochet

David I: Risk of a big bad entitity rounding us up and taking us to the stadium.

corporations are incredible machines to get indifferent workers to produce.

But evolution's never overnight.

njames, that doesn't apply to Benkler so much, although it certainly applies to other people, such as -- not to name names -- me.

so it can only happen by chance

"Break Down the Corporate Walls," sponsored by the Bank of America.

Rick: lol

Massive profiling etc needs to be actively banned or else it will happen

Google's Opt-Out village (a video): http://www.theonion.com/content/video/goog…

How do you know it's not already happening. I get 3 twitter followers per day that I never heard of and I'm pretty sure most of them are bots

1. Corporate personhood.

Hey Doc, that place really exists.

2. Requirement to place shareholder value first, always.

Yes, rick, we all live in Google Village. Sure.

Steve, and when they aren't bots, they still don't listen much. Valdis said about 1% is listening

3. Hyperscale

WE are corporations anytime we work at them

++Wendy, second alternative I think

Runaway corporate power: http://www.theonion.com/content/node/27796

anyone who depersonalizes where they work is either at the wrong place or copping out

Right, I think it's pretty safe to assume that all twitter communication is being monitored and saved away by any number of unknown parties. CALEA's dream.

Give the Onion a 3-min card

limiting of liability

the good thing about corporations are (relatively) value neutral

corporate raison d'etre today is to accumulate wealth for shareholders... this fosters amorality

which went to raising capital

Rushkoff says it was to give the monarch a cut of the take.

And to leverage the monarch's power.

agreed elliot

granting monopolies was an ideal

each corp is its own monarchy

Limiting liability.

raising capital and addressing risk

Judi: the cyberpunks were right!

JonL, I know. irony.

I'd be happy to drive a WikiCar, but I don't see how it's actually going to manage the welding facilities.

what people are missing here is the corporatios are DESPERATE to be our friends (so they can sell us stuff) we drive them as much as they drive us.

oh boy, here we go

why choose?

d) all of the above?

yay martin has been too quiet

governments, corporations or churches. In his, these have been all mixed up. Churches have acted like govts and corporations, etc.

BIGCO

BIGCO

Wikicar - the building DYI bus comes by your area, and you and your neighbors do a Kaboom play build on your vehicle?

as per nadia's comment yestesrday...

Lack of empathy required to rise to the top of the corporate heap.

I remember learning here that corporations are run for the benefit of the few in control - period. We should maybe look at IKEA - it's a foundation, not a corporation.

Tom, there's a legal structure in the UK, borrows from corp law but also has a social benefit side.

what was the name of the book martin just mentioned about the software industry?

At the first FOO camp, one activity was disassembling (then reassembling) a Prius someone rented and drove up to the camp. Fun. But instructive that building a Prius was not a possible activity for the uber-geeks there.

Steve K: I linked it above.

invisible engines

Invisible Engines.

duh - sorry

NP It was nonobvious

Martin: Two observations. first is that to be successful at the top you need to have low empathy for those around you. encurages narcissitic,and psychopathtic types. Second, you see a move from production at scale to a rise of the multisided market platform. Places that bring together buyers and sellers to trade. these tend to ahve winner takes all properties. A byproduct of the internet is making software more powerful, and reinforced successes such as google. What might hapen next is traditional telecom products such as voice and messaging get absorbed into large single-source companies. efficiencies happen inside these new generations of silos.

Platform markets

Tom F: Ikea is a mixed blessing

"The Box"

not "The Bachs." Also good. Different topic.

big rise in aggregators and wholesalers. the ower of the middlman becomes stronger and stronger. transfer of power away from outfits such as big telcos. Read "The Box." Winners were supply chain management companies such as maersk.

They solved the customer's problem.

THE BOX is a really fasscinating book FYI.

hard to predict second order effects: Just a call-back to Andrew O

also the book COD

and his railways-will-kill-horse-trade story

better salaries than industry standard etc but they´re killing the foundations of their success

the box is $0.99 on amazon kindle right now, just bought it.

Salt and Cod. history lessons from sociological angle.

So, is our theme "one word noun titles"?

the end of the trilogy would obviously be salt cod

Martin G: what would it tke to direct the narcissitic psychopathic behaviour towards something other than generating profit for telco shareholders?

like achieving a sustainable future

oops, wrong "the box". The Box about shipping containers is $9.99

Steve K. All the container ports started outside of the traditional ports. Biggest container port on the east coast is in New Jersey, not new york. You don't remake the existing. Let it die.

and if you mix Salt and Cod, you get bacalao

one key takeaway fromt he box is that almost NONE of the major ports survived - and they spent a lot of money tryig to comete with containers using the old business model

McPhee's The Founding Fish is a good story, but not really much about salt or cod

the most facinating part of the book is actually the descriptions of how ports ran before containerization. it is mind-boggling.

Barbara: Cullum report. ... controlling the steady growth in corporate power."

open source law

Not that corporations are bad, just that they won't address all of our concerns, and may make it more difficult to achieve other goals.

anyone have a link for the cullum report?

where can the report be found in digital form/web?

Could it be that ports for packets moved everywhere?

FYI, I think the "Container" of the technology world is virtualization (esp. VMWare) with the same massive total-system efficiencies and the same early lack of appreciation of how those efficiencies will obsolesce prior models.

steve: your comment that old infrastructure just died is incorrect. The new container shipping industry still uses many of the same skill sets and assets of the old methods. Lots of supply chain overlap. Containers did change _some_ of the components and it was a dramatic change, but it was built on lots of the old.

dweinberger: that came up when she broughtit up before

competition was not enough to contain it

can't find it...

there's no online summary

Barbara: what is the full title of the Collum Report?

no wikipedia article on cullum. Nothing on the Web. It is funtionally fictitious.

status of the checks and balances in the new situation?

i'm checking lobrary of congress

Barbara: founders feared abusive power in *anybody's* hands. One way corporations have fought back is to leverage their status as persons.

Why does no one challenge the accident of corporate personhood?

"Unequal Protection"

Maybe my company decided we don't want you to find the Collum Report....

Barbara: 1886 case. note comments from the bench.

unequal protection: http://books.google.com/books?id=WsJuPwAAC…

How to live with benefits of corporations but prevent abuse of power?

Jon L. Actually there are some small attempts: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_per…

by thom hartmann

basically your virtual machine becomes the universal container for executable code with management of the underlying infrastructure handled/managed/structured at the virtual machine level and everything below that abstratec away.

Nadia, thanks.

Jon L: There are a lot of groups. Just search "challenging corporate personhood"

Thanks, cool.

Corporation for National Research Initiatives® (CNRI) is a not-for-profit organization formed to undertake, foster, and promote research in the public interest. Activities center around strategic development of network-based information technologies, providing leadership and funding for information infrastructure research and development.

I knew that Thom Hartmann was active in this regard, didn't know about others.

robin. not sure I really agree. most of the old skill sets and assets were not carried over.

When the dot-com bust happened, thousands of instant companies just as instantly disappeared, stiffing creditors for -- I am sure -- billions. My magazine, Linux Journal, was clobbered. We had nobody to collect from, because these companies essentially vanished, like snow on the water. No VCs, no individuals, were subject to collections. Was this a Bad Thing, though? Don't think so. But it speaks to a different kind of corporate power than usually discussed.

CNRI has published a number of monographs covering historical threads: the growth of railroads, electric utilities, the banking system.

packing the cargo (into the container) now done by the customer. previously it was shipped to the dock and packed (or re-packed) there to fit into the ship

is registering noncorporateme.com

Another great book on this topic is "Age of Betrayal." http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_0_11?url…

At first I thought that was noncorporatememe.com

So by having lots more small owners, who are small silent uninformed owners, means that we have strengthened the minority shareholders.

who do know what is going on and are active

Guys, when am I expected to even *READ* all these "great books" !

so an interesting issue around grassroots -- no persistent

Benoit: this weekend. Test Monday.

I don't think Moveon.org is "netroots," except in point of origin. Or is less so than other developments that have no name.

Moveon is very top down.

and therefore more difficult to destroy a persistent grassroots effort, because like guerillas, they are hard to target and destroy?

Netroots is more Kos et al. More interactive.

Well I DO have 7 hours or so of "free time" at 30000 feet tonight...

Heh.

For example, netrooters have contributed $x000,000 to the camapign coffers of opponents of the South Carolina congressman who shouted at Obama the other day.

what dave is getting at is the "agency problem" which is getting corproate MANAGERS to act in the best intersests of the corproate shareholders.

Melancholy...

The Swedish copper mining company Stora Kopparberg ("great copper mountain") in Falun was granted a charter from King Magnus IV of Sweden in 1347. The first share in the company is however dated already in 1288 and mining in the mountain had started possibly much earlier. Some claim this to be the oldest existing corporation or limited liability company in the world.

This tune sounds like the theme to The Endless Summer surfing movie of long ago.

Well, the famous VOC did it too and made the shares tradable

shareholdser are perfectly happy to have a corproation "die" if it is more pofitable to unwind it at the end of its natural life. managers (with firm specific skills) are not happy to do that and will burn every last dime of shareholder's returns trying to find a way to keep the corproation alive.

Anders: Did the Stora Kopparberg charter of 1347 limit the liability of the participants?

While I agree with much of the hand-wringing here about the power of corporations, I also think it's the wrong fight. In fact, I'm not sure we need to fight at all. We need to invent. "Invention is the mother of necessity," said Veblen.

The book I referred to is "Unequal Protection" by Thom Hartmann.

Anyone driving back to Boston to arrive in downtown or airport around 4?

I would be very grateful for a ride.

Jean, we'll likely be driving back around 2ish.

Jean, same for me but got a small car and Benoit/Sascha already

Thank you Robin!

Appreciate the consideration Herman.

hey random question for the group, if anyone knows the best web storefront software please ping me, I'm helping a friend set up a small business

is the tripod based on flip's tripod that was so great? or did flip get it from this company?

Melissa is a photog too (I see her snapping in front of me)

Logo ought to be Reddy Kilowatt getting the electric chair

Anyone driving back to Boston any time after lunch?

dave. we are

how interesting, robin

I wonder how much power the watt thing consumes

um, anything like, well, room?

did she have two name tags in or what?

Blame it on the bossa nova.

lots o room. probably.

the hook!

David's giving someone the hook!

(congrats Benoit)

I would like a little bit of space in your car, Robin, if you are willing to share. :)

yes. already in.

really, robin. You have room in your car. You're going to Boston. I am trying to get to Boston. Seems like there's some sort of alignment of interests.

anyone leaving tomorrow?

dw: think there is an app for that?

OK ALREADY. ROBIN, CAN I PLEEEEEEEASE HAVE A RIDE?

building on excess capacity

Brough gets the hook!

Rough tough Brough.

congratulations Brough

cool

rough tough brough tells the carriers that enough's enough

now if we can only solve the immoderator's dilemma

any suggestions for hostoles (cheap) near logan?

hostels

nadia, there is my house.

Cool!

i won't be there

Joanne: we would be well-advised to figure out how to facilitate government in this space.

my son will be

is there space in the car?

that is leaving today. and I think so but not positive yet

nadia, there is if I go back to my original plan.

broadband stimulus update: The $7.2 billion in funding provided for broadband will be leveraged into as much as $14 billion in a combination of loans and grants, and additional funds will be provided by the recipients themselves. A small portion of this funding will go to broadband mapping and some of the funding will go to demand stimulation, but most of it will go to infrastructure. Awards of the first round will be made by year-end, and some will come as soon as November. All of the funds will be awarded by September 30, 2010, possibly as soon as the summer of 2010.

also, nadia, we have an extra room in our house

dweinberger? whats your original plan?

the car is becoming a congestible good?

i have a minivan. likely with 5 extra seats. but have to confirm that all seats are in car.

bus, the way i came. very comfortable, conducive to work,

you could sit in the back of the bus...and work

:)

Ok Im cool with whatever

me too....

ok, so I'm taking the bus.

yes. two months left for a whole host legislation. FCC and climate bill and health bill

Everyone should check out changecamp.org

David, I thought I was hearing that there were possibly 5 seats?

There are insitutions that have built-in advantages. Munis, counties, ... many not interested or interesting. There are thousands of munis that have expressed an interest. Each of us is in a position of influence in the next couple of months, to enable a wide variety of participants. If there is an openness to everybody's involvement, much can get done.

And, Nadia, you're more then welcome to our spare room, a Friday shabbos meal. Also, we're raffling off a bike.

can they do all that + health care??

It will not impress the FCC I guess, but the Dutch Goverment just aanounced that they will change laws to make participations of municipalities in broadbandinfrastructure easier

Yayy!

thanks David!

Joanne... pay attention to broadbandusa.gov. see the list of 2200 applications. searchable by state and category. would have been many more if the rules hadn't been written for phone companies. give them credit.

no friday dinner, no bike raffle at my house. But I am 5 blocks from downtown T stop

and there is a little time to influence the rules for the next round of BTOP/RUS proposals, yes?

yay end run

FYI the telcos are all cmplaining the stimulus rules were written for muni's.

We're 2 blocks from Green Line T stop. Plus you take home your own puppy.

The 5 blocks to downtown t stop is a big deal with suitcares, so Im goona run with Robin

but thanks so much for your kind hospitality David

I'll drive you to the airport tomorrow.

Steve, that probably suggests is a little more balance than we give them credit for?

damn!

Hahahaha

Steve K: What Joanne is saying, I believe, is that the BTOP rules made it very difficult for projects in densely populated cities to apply

wea re aucitoning off the righto to host nadia. bids start at $100

well-played, nadia, well-played :)

David I: there is a sense of the meeting to focus on end-run. Munis is one.

rather than munis v corporations in this case

Also, note the difference on EU level on muni involvement vs not-a-problem-for-the-munis.

++ isen

I donate all proceedingsfrom the auction to charity

ben t. wither the rules are balanced or they were written to be unworkable bot for telcos AND for munis....

preferably something to do with starving artistes

and we're going to kill the puppy. Hey, I don't make the rules!

David wants us to verbally tweet

telcos complaining the attached regulations and the required disclosures are to onerous. that is encouraging IMHO

"Also, note the difference on EU level on muni involvement vs not-a-problem-for-the-munis."

Talk vs tweet

Anders: how do you mean? can you elaborate?

End run around tweeting.

dweinberger: Endrun Enron?

lets talk about end run

The Third Cloud (via Reed).

corporations are people too, and that is a issue

Struck by persistence, depth, breadth of desire for an end run. 4 BH years and counting it has been a topic.

Let´s talk about coprorations and people

BigHook: Ten years of trying to force emergence.

The key takeaway for me is to figure IF and HOW corporations in the sector can change. I don't believe in the power of revolutions. I have more hope after Bighook than before.

mine: I must go home and build 100mbs in the 1 sq mile around my house. hopefully my neighbors will agree!

The technology is now in place (and product will shortly be) to actually implement a wireless "end run" around the telcos.

coprotations

shit

corporations

My main takeaway is new (sometimes old) people and projects to collaborate with.

The Tussle is not a black and white thing; it's a multi-dimensional struggle between corporations, governments, and other entities for whether and how to connect all of us to the Net -- and what the Net becomes.

New for me: individual and societal consequences of development of Third Cloud

How do we provide abundant, neutral, commodity bandwidth?

Mesh - slow but inevitable. To be less personally assaulted by the psychopathy organisational life.

I'm just glad to be thinking about these issues again. I'm quite interested in conflicting interests and how they're resolved in a political environment that's a bit bonkers. We have the technology to mediate conversations that can inform policy and practice, but how do we manage those conversations and convert them into real work? Also concerned that we build toward thrivability.

The end-run will be a shared FTTN. with alternatives first mile. some pure commercial, some PPPs as you get into low density areas

Create sizable examples of good alternative endruns and your corporations and shareholders will adapt quickly. Wireless might do it, muni-fiber too.

To think deeper about the impact of the corporation, government and municipalities and people - a real tussle

My goal is to use the conversations here to take my blog outside its narrow focus and comfort zone. I will not reference the participants or bighook itself, but I will reference the reading list, links, and ideas.

Third Cloud +Rick +Martin +Cherry

Big Hook added some very valuable context and community to the work I've taken on. Thanks!

New radio technologies (MIMO), dynamically steered antennas and unlicensed spectrum should allow for a wireless end run

Brett says: tussle = worthless concept, conflates and obscures too much

Bighook value is in the connections (direct and hopefully 2nd order) that I need and will need to turn a vision into something real.

Dont get trapped by the copper &CableTV legacy. that will soon be over.

Brett says: end run = new entrants and new alternatives

Per the last few bighooks, I am "not worried" about the direction the telco infrastructure is headed and this one reinforced that. I see a lot of progress and critical mass on the muni side reflected in the increasing maturity of that ecosystem. I am (grudgingly) willing to believe3 that wireless mesh might actualy be evolving t a point where it is a legitimate end run. and I think the application demands of people to reach "the cloud" will assure good-enough net neutrality. I AM worried that the groups love of "disruptive change" is blinding us to the collateral damage it will cause. I think that iw what we will be talking about at the 20th bighook

oh, and music makes conferences better

mesh networks deserve another look...including as one possible method (inter alia) for an "end run".

My takeaway is more confidence that current structures are alterable and even inevitable. Also, the lunch and dinner conversation here is excellent.

I'll also be taking away a few extra lbs !! - great food!

Im with Steve K. on this one, and I think that we can think about how to be a part of creating a viable future

(I've got one sentence left:-)). A dike breaks (which is irreversible)when the hole is big enough.

Evolution is a better model than intelligent design. That said, we should be as David Reed says, constant gardeners. The question is at what level do we garden. At an architectural level, an applications level? Social policy? federal local? The answer is to favor decentralized innovation which means local not federal govt and probably applications layer rather than architectural level innovation

queeks

The keyboards sound like rain.

David I and Bighook may have gotten me out of retirement.

quaker geeks

Retired P ++

:)

Wow, Steve K. Yes. Growing the awareness of the collateral damage is important. It may not change the course, but acknowledgment is good.

I LIKE HERMAN's - says what I wanted to say in a lot less words

point of entrance to community planning in my townships... I'll be following up with the nultys regarding how to organize a plan for rural connectivity

I twittered Herman faster tahn you typed, so there.

Great point, Herman.

Retired P - we weren't sure we believed you were in retirement

like Brad's levels question. How do we know where to focus on openness?

( )

wendy brad ++

let's all talk at once.

Steve K: very aware of collateral damage, don't know how to prevent it.

Mitigation possible.

thnks all (blush)

Conversations at this big hook have reinforced my belief that rapid innovation on wireless / mobile devices plus demographics show some early warning signals of danger regarding breaking the openness of the net. I remain excited about mesh and wireless end run, and this big hook it feels closer than ever and best of luck to the hook winner in the year ahead. I remain aware of the problems of corporations and abuse of power, but am not sure we've reached any conclusion or meaningful discussion as to what might be done about it.

don't not do things just because of collaterial damage

maybe we should spend the hour talking this way. you don't have to wait your turn

Jon L: mmm maybe we can build social structures to help ease its effects and those worst affected by it

yes, precisely Robin - we actually can all talk at once...

I'm still not clear how the end run works, though.

Nadia: yes.

ok this is officially wierd

but then we might want to talk about congestion issues. Brett?

correct problems after the collateral damage, don't try to anticipate everything

end run = just do it for me

hmmm.... can a working group collaborate to put together the "community fiber/wireless build in a box" with the tmplates and lessons learned and post it somewhwere? a lot of people here might be able to organize their neighbors/neighborhoods IF they knew what they were organizing.

it's like a back channel at a silent Buddhist retreat

I figure once I have the first sq mile it will all be downhill from there

garble

steve k++

Question: If you had $10 million to fund things in this room, who or what would you give it to and why.

you know we could do this without being in the same room, right

And another thing to worry about (or question): At what levels are engineers the right people to be making decisions? How far can the geek ethos take us as a politics directing a broad new social world?

Steve K.: That community group is sitting to my left.

collateral damage ,like several other factors needs to be considered to not let a lot of flanks wide open in the political game.

garble

doesn't sascha have answer to steve K: wireless in a box?

Of note: this is how I experienced the early morning today

garble

Pushing people out of their comfort zone shouldn't be considered collateral damage, even when they resent and fight it.

plus I look forward to a smart, geeky, unemployed recent grad LOVING the support gig

Robin: exactly.

this is the strangest fucking group behavior ever.

Robin: yes, we have several options for mesh-in-a-box.

yes - we cound do this not in teh same room - but the room (great room that is ) helps

I can't type fast

Steve K: maybe we could make an app that would prompt you to submit the data at treguar intervals

We're fucking?

and visualise it someway inteeligble

Ah but silence is truly golden

where is the F*^&King?

power matter

Steve K: San Francisco has built a site to do just this (wireless/fiber in a box). It'll be available mid-October, with FCC sponsorship.

Ask for a moment: Is this possibly pathological?

pwer

oower

power

all of the above!

power

wouldn't this be far better if done in powerpoints?

power

I believe some corollary to godwins law can now be invoked

what is brough's first step in his plan?

with the "fade" transition?

this should make into a "The Big Hook Method" manual

4quad chart

be bees

the strangest thing was last year when we used this to do DIY karaoke looking up song lyrics online and posting them as the music played

quad chart

a new verb, grouptwweeting

presentation zen

martin, is this pathological?

quatd chart

dyi silent conversation

typo

here's what I think is useful to think about Brough's plan. What comes next after the pilot succeeds. who will line up against it, how soon, how will they attack

typo

no typo will go uncommented on.

waht?

Sascha, it's your turn.

for example, say the project goes well in the cambridge building. what's next

ahhh. we are back to doing what we do best which is talking about what we are doing while doing it in a cntinuous self-referential loop....

My top money winners, in no order, are: robin, dewayne, david r, brough, peter c...

this is part of the path to get over that consensus time-draining issue. :) Thank goddess for innovations.

I have another area for an end-run. Is it possible for us to help corporate employees believe they can thrive without the corporation. If so, the out-dated corporations might dissolve faster.

more boston roll-outs?

would turn taking evolve

Steve K & Jon L: what are the low-hanging fruit?

How does it scale to other cities

but seriously, when I met with Brough earlier, I wasn't clear on what the first steps toward persuasioin were and why people would bite.

we must never speak of this to anyone

consgestion is a problem

ah choo

the humans would not understand

SteveK, about a "manual", check out http://byobroadband.blogspot.com/

@steve - why would the opposiiton to Brough be any different than the opposition to muni

I'd like to see us all take up Joanne's challenge and report on the BH2009 list.

we will always have Woods Hole

can we type it to someone?

I can't read this fast!

old AOL chat rooms looked just like this

Andrew M: corporate managers already believe they cannot expect to finish their career in the corporation, so that's a crack in the wall

Low hanging fruit = here.

Tad has been trying to make fiber happen in his neighbourhood for two years.

sex

/w dweinberger 16 million wow users do this 5 hours a night

xex

kitteh

yes, big hook finally aachieves the conversational grace of an aol chat room

perversin

There are a ton of mesh-in-a-box options -- here's one we built (cleverly titled, "mesh-in-a-box") a few years back: http://www.saschameinrath.com/2007jan23wif…

Can a local explain the derivation of Woods Hole? Like, who was Woods, and where was his hole?

evil

First post! oh damn.

THe thing I dont know about the wireless-your-neighborhood plan is what are the economics you need to hit to fund the pipe that the mesh ultimately dumps into (which will have to be a relatively expensive telco higher speed access line if you arent aggregating a lot of DSL under questionable terms of service interpretations

Maybe we need a revived community networking movement.

Steve K & Jon L: maybe we can have small social meetings of people who are at both ends of this tussle for/ against disruption and just have them hang out

oh, sorry.

We originally used it to wireless Farragut square -- then it made its way to Cleveland.

I want the justin timberlake version of "mesh-in-a-box"

Jon L.: I think we do, but maybe we can do it as a techcommunity

The Farragut Square project was to demonstrate that one could wireless a park from beginning to end in 6 hours with $1000

Maybe I'll dust this off as a model: http://wirelessfuture.org/

perhaps we should blank to improve the screen

what's the equivelent of a 3 minute card on this. Wait, I play my card!

I no longer am enjoying this

steve s + routing experts. to what extent would it be possible to offload the basic routing computations from the handheld mesh devices to a cloud service or remote data center?

is it meaningful to consider mesh for low population density areas?

we used to call the middle mile etc that the mesh dumps into "worm holes" - they bypass large parts of the normal fabric of the mesh.

Today, we could do it in 2 hours for $200.

he will now stand silently for 3 min

AGoldman: yes. so the shift for defining thrivability is not to think so much about what we ourselves can do to thrive (or help our friends to survive) but to help remove the fear from others by helping them to peek at new ways they can thrive. I think you are right about the crack - it's an expaneded opportunity

the back channel has switched valence

freank p: yes

it is now the front channel

Jon L: last update t that site was in 2004

more music

I think it would be really cool for him to stand up here and say nothing.

ahhh, all the precious screen space is mine all mine

Nadia: correct, hence the need to "dust it off."

i own the backchannel

be quiet all of you

That is cool.

ok, here's what I want to say with my 3 min

It's a project I was involved in in Austin. David I. was an advisor.

I would like to ask brough to explore what comes after his pilot

Jon L: can that dusting off also involve us making it global

international?

dump the moderator, he's in our line of sight

how can it expand to other locations, cities, markets

It brought coherence to regional wireless.

What is the sound of one hand typing?

presuming it's succesfful

Nadia: right on.

Robin - How? Higher poweredxmissions or what?

quiet you all

it's my backchannel

And Sascha has great practical models for meshing around.

when do we expect opposition to arrive?

what forms will it take?

how will we counter it?

by chatting

Steve sounds like he trained on a manual typewriter.

ok, that's my questions for brough and I give the remainder of my time to him

JOn L: and add a social networking aspect to it, as an alternative to the smarmy web-start up meetings where ebveryone wants to be Steve Jobs

The opposition is outside, coming up the drive with guns drawn.

we can open another backchannel if this one is blocked

to respond

what is a pilot for brough?

he can use words

something I forgot in my 3 minutes: 45 muni fiber-to-the-home networks are up and running (and cash flowing) in some of the most conservative parts of the US. 200 municipally owned fiber networks bring services to schools, libraries, senior centers, non-profits. And so on. The carriers find it sufficiently disruptive that they passed prohibiting laws in 17 states.

Nadia: they want to be Jobs? Yikes.

machiavelli on the new order, much quoted http://www.gurteen.com/gurteen/gurteen.nsf…

joanne - is there a good site that aggregates these?

Re: mesh development -- might I suggest: http://oswc.net

Joanne, is there a list somewhere of state laws passed by telcos?

Brough: and will you pass the joint?

sascha, a question that came up at dinner last night: How bottom-up was the Vienna mesh deployment?

Jon L: yeah. I want something that is not about how are we going to sell our startup to Google and more of "how do we take care of one another"

Machievelli quote - I sent this to john chambers at Cisco re his entry into the server market. It must be considered that there is nothing more difficult to carry out nor more doubtful of success nor more dangerous to handle than to initiate a new order of things; for the reformer has enemies in all those who profit by the old order, and only lukewarm defenders in all those who would profit by the new order; this lukewarmness arising partly from the incredulity of mankind who does not truly believe in anything new until they actually have experience of it.

nadia ++

cost of access network lower for wireless

Nadia: I see a lot of both. I wonder if we can combine the energies?

dweinberger: entirely -- the city only got involved a few years in. it's entirely NGO operated.

Right now they're silo'd.

Doc: we're preparing the list right now to give Blair Levin (at his request). I will forward it to you as soon as it's ready.

also, Vienna was a convenient exemplar.

how would craig newmark build Brough's netowrk?

it's also Guifi.net, Djursland.net, Berlin, Leipzig, Graz, Athens, etc. etc. etc.

+++ Steve K

sascha, so was it the NGO buying the boxes, setting them up, etc., or was it individuals buying a box and setting it up?

Joanne -- I'm having dinner with Blair on Wednesday -- we should ponder more how to shepherd him in the right direction on this.

Agreed on +++s for SteveK

Craig Newmark would build it with 1999 PCs and 2400b modems.

What remain is structure, risk distribution,

dweinberger: both -- it's a network of networks. an ownerless network where anyone can put up wireless routers and extend the network. it grows organically.

sascha: thx.

One of the fringe elements in an end run: the early adopters are the ones who will buy and install cool new stuff. The masses will not unless it's SO VERY COOL that they must do so to maintain social standing.

Actually Craig wouldn't build it, but I get the thought exercise.

Jon L: yes I think we can, Im trying to figure it out by deploying wikicrats. I have started thinking ( by doing) about the dynamics of how something like that could work, and we can continue thinking and experimenting together: http://www.slideshare.net/cookiesncode/rep…

all the social aspects in participation needs to be used

Anders: yes, they do

Nadia: absolutley. I think the key is to start small, in demo mode, and get a sense what works.

I guess napster didn't care about terms of service. How did skype do it?

Anders: and maybe one way of getting there is by having diversity in he people who get together. Also you need to have people who are personally engaged n trying o make this happen in and through their respective roles

Find an intentional community or cohousing community to try, first.

where can one get 100Mbps for $1000-2000 month?

The terms of service have changed in this era of bit limits. I think that might not be a problem.

we tried this with our immediate neighbors. IT wasn't top priority for them. They didn't care. Even that small effort wasn't worth organizing for.

If you want to stump lawyers, ask them a yes/no question.

not enough pain w/in a community. Small dollars for them that we are replacing and they see enough of an upside.

I wouldn't mind trying this with housing projects, rolling in training programs.

they dont' see enough of upside

Jon L: in boston they ahve done that

Jon L: yes. I think it starts by starting and in the process looking into and connective with communities where interesting projects are being experiemented with...take a look at the Artist Pension trust: http://www.aptglobal.org/homepage.asp

robin: yup. relevance and usability.

Jon: see Openairboston.org

Robin: not surprised.

to spread mesh beyond current wifi users, it needs (?) to be presented not as mesh (because who cares?) but as a set of usable, geographically-relative services. A neighborhood network.

Brough, I can help you build/facilitate discussion on a web site for your plan if needed.

judi c, you are a generous person.

dw: neighborhood networks,,,not much loved but much talked about. ie. outside.in

Solar panels and routers on every rooftop.

jon: that is smart grid idea. ripe but players not quite there

the way it works is that Artists, established and new, give the trust a painting on a regular basis. In art no one knows which paintings will sell for alot and which wont, which artists will be hot or not tomorrow.....so what they do is they auction off the art works when the timing is right, and the money is disctibuted evenl amongst the memebrs as a pension

well, and here's more questions for the list, are you an ISP? If someone sends a million spam message out port 25 through your middle mile, who's problem is that? If someone sets up a tor server or does something illegal over the wires, who responds when/if the fbi shows up at the other end of the middle mile connection asking for info?

sascha -- one place to get last mile bandwidth at that price is Cogent, but Elliot's talking about going in as an ISP from some CO or internet exchange, which does exist somewhere in Toronto.

the operational issues can easily be disconnected from the ownership of the netwrok (and the rules for using it)

Hey, what's that about a Tor server?

then it is subsidized

Judi ... there are so many inputs that I don't think Brough has seen your kind offer - its off the screen already and Brough is in conversation and not reading the screen. You'll need to email direct.

there is small ovhd

anyone wanna do the Facebook for mesh-based neighborhood networks, that gives people a reason to mesh and explains through its existence what the value of mesh is to its users?

just seeing if you're awake wendy ;)

but still real. $1-2k/mo for the sq. mile in my early estimates

Anders, say more?

You mean if someone chooses to enable anonymous communications for whistleblowers and dissidents...

wendy: anonimity

elliot -- where do you get the pipe from?

dweinberger: Maybe Less Networks would do that.

Thanks Jane

Brough: lets call it "Greynet" :-)

that is research. at this point I believe it would be toronto hydro who has the closest fibre

tx jonl.

dw: i'm wondering if in europe marketing olsr sw upload to turn your iphone into a mesh node, but marketing it as free txt msjing to friends would work.

I think there is also the problem of battery life? always on app?

I would think Brough would want someone like Wendy advising him and at his back if some of those questions that I posted earlier arise

AGoldmanISP: thanks for the clarification. Within the US context, a major problem is getting from the last-mile network to those Internet exchange points. Due to the non-competition in this "middle-mile", the pricing for most ISPs is through the roof. Which is why we need a national intervention within this space.

Is http://www.torix.net/ too far? Not open to cooperatives?

lessnetworks is selling the network. I think we have to sell the apps in order to make manifest the value of the network

To be clear -- ad-hoc mesh is now actually illegal in the United States thanks for the utter stupidity of CALEA.

robin, txt msging is indeed a possible killer app for mesh, as you've said.

meshting

Sascha, so is Brough's pilot idea ad-hoc?

dweinberger I think Less Networks has done and could do both.

And Sascha and I have a connection there.

One cooperative per Elliots square mile to get mental ownership and pays the "black hole", a cooperative of cooperative's who gives economy of scale to support stuff

Steve S. I dunno, ask him. But CALEA makes a lot of networking illegal -- in a sort of "jay walking is illegal but everyone does it anyway" sort of way.

no doubt, jonl, but their site sells the network. that's all i know about them. I think we need a FB-ish app (maybe with text msging as the lead function) to explain why people need to mesh on up.

Subsidies.

i just registered meshting.com

lol

Rich MacKinnon (who runs Austin Wireless) and I have been working for years on experiments with using his hot spots and our mesh to build a metro scale, distributed, ad-hoc, decentralized, multi-homed mesh.

CALEA and other control top down aspects needs to be adressed too if you have any ambition to shift control and value from the top/central point

Nadia, there you go again.

dweinberger They provide infrastructure for Austin Wireless City POPS, and at one time they were running community apps over that network.

dw: FB doesn't do apps on devices? I don't think you could use FB to upload sw that would change how your device works. right?

i just registered teshting. And I've contracted John Tesh as our spokesperson. Take that, Meshting.com!

I think it would be interesting to know if what is being contemplated is technically illegal but tolerated, but it means they can knock the house down at any point

the open source geek squad?

robin, I mean FB only as a type of app, not literally. Social, local.

I do not think you can say that CALEA makes any networking illegal - it just makes requirements on it

Meshing vs teshting, Nike challenge showdon. be afraid.

CALEA is a great example of remarkably dumb regulation -- mandating specific business models and making many communications technologies illegal (via the letter of the law).

steve s: but often illegal stuff doesn't get knocked down when it is too big and too large a constituency that wants it.

whos john tesh?

Teshting 1-2-3 You need DPR on the board

could take the risk here of the best outcome

dweinberger: I just checked: they do still have Facebookish functionality for their users.

Scott B: agreed -- networking is still legal, one just has to ensure that the architecture allows surveillance.

teshting and meshting, sitting in a tree trying to get a meeting with mr T

another bighook conlucsion - this discussion has made me excitied again to be working in this industry/subject space where I was feeling a little blah coming in

You can see it here, but this might require registration: http://www.lessnetworks.com/static/community.html

nadia, I would have been happy to offer you a great deal on teshting at our family dinner tonight, but you chose another offer. So now I'm afraid I must crush you and Meshting too. Sorry. I don't make the rules.

Nadia, did I mention how much I enjoy your presence, expression, and humor?

Nurture G. ++

why thank you Nurture G. thats very sweet

Nadia is not only a wonderful person, but a FAST TYPIST. And she types HARD.

john tesh: Just the greatest musician of our age. http://www.tesh.com/

hahahahah

CALEA is not clear enough to say where the surveillance needs to be able to be done - e.g., between users on the same access point?

hardtappers.com

didnt reister that one

NAP - network access point - old NSF ised

dweinberger: I have plans, devious plans, to smuggle you home with me in my small backpack. You are a riot. All by yourself.

s/ised/idea/

dweinberger: Beg your pardon... you obviously didn't know about this guy: http://www.manilow.com/

Jon!

Scott -- there are a large number of footnotes to CALEA on the subject of "hairpinning" which is how do you track two users communicating through an edge AP

Nurture G.: He is a riot, and he is rioting.

OK, here is a question to all how do we leverage the political clout in this room to affect certain changes?

agreed - for most situations its not all that hard to do

Do we have any political clout as an international tech community?

big diff between data center and peering point

yes, nadia, it seems like many people in this room have access to Obama Net folks. Is there some more organized way we can leverage this access to advance our agenda?

Nadia: depends who we is. Probably yes.

And what is the evidence by which we would be able to know that and therefore wield it?

Many of the requirements on a "telco" are not possible to live up too for a small entity. Convinient eh?

e.g. NAP (pre NSF funding) - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAE-East

Anyone in the room know anything about politix? were´s MIcah?

dark fiber, black hole, middle mile, peering point, woods hole, mesh point

Nurture, we could whiteboard who we know and how.

fun fact. datacenters today are measured in terms of wattage (power) not square feet. data centers obsolesce when they can't handle the computing power density, not the physical space in them. become too underpowered to be worth using

I cover datacenters too :-)

go harman!

herman

but the question is whether there's anuything to do with that map of connection?

dweinberger Good point. I should talk to Gary Chapman about that, he and the LBJ school have been backofficing some stuff re technology policy for the Obama team.

DW, Nurture, Robin, Nadia all in the same car going to Boston. I see possibilities!

splendid. I love doing that. Usually I convince Valdis to help me. :)

re CALEA requirements - its actually easy - just give a 3rd party $100K - there are 3 (at least) companies that will do it for you

:-(

Bet with this group we could get persistent attention, having opened that door.

Thanks Judi!

micro mile

Bet Sascha has some ideas about that, too.

dweinberge & Jon & Nurture& Judi: Ton Ziljstra tales about spheres of influence

Then again, there's Susan Crawford.

Judi -- you have a mind like a steel trap to remember that detail

ut there are others too. And there will be more invented

pmaybe rather than mapping out who we knpe, we can map out what we can affect through the people we know

Using politics is fine, but can't the "end around" include going after the middle mile? MCI was the original end around via microwave, and then used politics to kick down the door that prevented the model from being adopted ubiquitously. So shouldn't we do it in a few places first, and then demand permission to do it everywhere?

ignoring for the moment conflicts of interest etc and just thinking about what we could feasibly affect

Nadia- do you see that there is a clear policy agenda coming out of this meeting?

Robin, I am a spotter, facilitator, and reframer of good ideas. :)

Rick: I think absolutely yes.

re: politics Nadia, look behind you and to the left at the lovely beardless guy next to the harmonica player?

Rick, good question. I wonder if anyone tier 1 carrier would allow a direct interconnect. Or maybe there's someone sitting out there with a bunch of dark fiber that might be interest :)

that's where you'd have to start. would drive who the "we" is, the ask, the target decision maker, mapping the levers that move the target, etc

ok, so can we map out the agenda, and the obstacles

Now I'm wishing Susan C was here.

sure, you want to do some mind-mapping? in the cloud?

Can someone formulate the agenda so even adhd brats like myself can grasp it?

or do you want it on paper in the next hour?

MindMeister?

Nurture: yes!

Jon L.: I crafted the middle-mile solution for the Obama Campaign last year (at the request a of little-known guy named Julius G. ;). It's now public as a policy brief: "Building a 21st Century Broadband Superhighway: A Concrete Build-out Plan to Bring High-Speed Fiber to Every Community" (see: http://www.newamerica.net/publications/pol…). Also been working for a half-year with Senator Klobuchar and Warner's offices to revamp the Eshoo bill to integrate this. There's some other stuff, but we can talk afterward about those endeavors.

rick -- cogent is sort of a tier 1 carrier but the other tier 1s hate it, so it gets disconnected often http://www.google.com/search?q=cogent+peer…

I think lets get in on paper now

Sascha: thanks!

can we ask David to bring it up ?

bubbl.us is good for sharing... and is widget for expression on your blog

David I

Steve S. Yes indeed. But I'd like to approach it as a community-based solution that potentially includes some corporate inputs, rather than a (dreaded) corporate-based solution.

the elevator pitch: what is the problem, what needs to change, why

and then how

Gotcha Rick!

formula = dupe the canadian investing public

Sascha: cool, I see there's a 'wireless future' program.

Maybe we should repurpose the domain.

Brough: http://www.jfdimesh.com is available

OK so the vision is a wreless future?

Nadia, let's start with grabbing the white board here

ok.

to build an add-drop mux requires you to "stop" the optical signal, sort it out, drop off raffic destined for that location and bring on traffic desinted to go out (think a railway siding or a highway exit) and that requires a fixed set of components. the costs are NOT inflated here. the component makers are in vast oversupply (still) from the bubble era and there are a huge number of chinese entrants. the guys who assempble those components into boxes arent in much better shape. the market there is highly competitive, especially because there is a chinese company called Huawei that underprices everyone else. so those costs are the "competed away" costs.

There's a whiteboard?

well theres a white paper thingy

Apologies - the paper up front

Brough needs a campfire with young people

campfire won't work as well with young people. Can't do sidechats.

Nurture G and Nadia: got it.

no this is cool Judi

I like to ask the question about what do we want the future to look like (refrain from expectations please0 - and what is the gap between here and there.

Nadia: To me the vision is ubiquitous connectivity, by whatever means necessary, which means a mix of wired and wireless.

uh oh. we need to start again. is the weekend free?

Mindmapping the future could be good. I suppose we should have mindmapped this meeting.

Dr. W: Bighook is sort of like the dog that caught the car.

OK Rick: can everyone else answer too?

Judi C: I think young people would respond really well to this format

What is your vision?

use cases would be helpful. stories

fr the future?

Jon L.: My main hope coming out of Big Hook are connections with people that want to do some policy hacking with me -- the main problem we have these days is that there's only a few public interest folks and we're being overwhelmed by the number of people who would like our ideas, input, etc. and that means we need to dramatically expand the brains working on these things.

visual collaboration is tons of fun...even if it is sometime hard to read after

Is there some way to surface the connections, our cabal, and organize...

+1 to that!

Sascha: though overcommitted, I'd love to work with you.

surface our network of influence?

Yep - it would be good to colour code the discussion threads

Google has an interesting piece of s/w that tells a person who met with someone, when someone else in google is meeting with them.

Jon L.: Me too

And what will be the 2-3 ideas we like to sell?

Jane, BH does have archives of our backchannel. We could color-code if someone wanted to help add color

The Manifesto for Ubiquitous Connectivity:

FWIW a company called Infinera has built an optical integrated circuit using indium phosphide (bitch to work with) that achieves lower cost and much higher reliability/tolerances (no discrete components to misalign/break). however, they are pricing to the cost umbrella of the discrete component guys (great margins) so not disruptive pricing/cost. however, cost to turn up/down service is much lower so it is disruptive on the margin. good summary of the technology http://www.infinera.com/technology/pic/lar…

The Big Hook Mesh (human)

An information network should share information.

david, is this simply a transarency thing?

yes Herman

transparency

ful disclosuer. Fidelity owns roughly 15% of infinera and I own it in my personal account. and if you look at the stock chart is has done nothing but go down since its IPO so dont take any of the above as a recommendation to buy or sell

frankp, not transparency because transp is good. It's a power thing. Work the network!

this influencing conversation is how we ended BH last year re climate change. and so it continues...maybe this is life? good intentions and very small percent of organizing follow through?

Judi: it would be great if contributors could select a colour as they type to identify the discussion they are relating to

"the thing about an inffrastructure is that it spins out something that supports all, not just one group. The benefits are so generalizable that it's hard for any one private entitty to by or sell it." - DI

the bad guys do this REAL well

enoss ++++++

+++ Robin, no "community" in the sense of ongoing discussion other than email.

big hook linked in?

precisely @enoss

work towards tangible goals, such as striking down state laws against muni networks, creating community-based coops to build local last mile/middle mile networks, using stimulus money to wire all public institutions with 100 mbps fiber, etc.

DW are you also offering your influence network? I thinks so, but not clear.

we all know cool and connected people at BH -- but in our lives, as we go along, we have to remember where it was that we thought we knew someone who knew someone at big hook

slime mold please.

And let me be clear: I'm not saying we need to express and formalize every contact we have. Just more transparency, more visibility. And, yes, Doc, I'll show you mine if the rest of you will show us yours.

I will show you mine and you don't have to show me yours (of course it would be nice.....)

I am part of Doc's network. There. Transparency.

I like to think that we don't need to stack talking points filled with lies, that truth is on our side. I believe in sunlight as the best disinfectant to corruption and regulatory capture

I am part of Judi's network.

can we trust the network to know...and put out a request if we need it

a big part of my social contract with my network is NOT delivering that transparency

It's interesting that most of us here know, say, Susan Crawford. But I'm not sure we all know how to approach her. Or what with. Or representing whom.

My experience in the previous years : what worked was a small core team and a large (below the radar) FOF (friends of fiber) group

And we both have a lot of connections in our network, so that's a bigger network. (We obey Reed's Law.)

but @AGoldmanISP - the people involved in corruption and regulatory capture are in the position to put up light-blocking curtains. No peeking!

Isen, I didn't mean this as a criticism, but as an opportunity. Obviously there's LOTS of networking that happens at BH.

The core team was widely visible

although knowing the power of the group is important for any expression of our collective strength.

FWIW, I have seen stocks move in meanigul ways due to rumors about what I think or dn't think. That is not because of "me" but because of the seat I sit in but there is no way to separate those two.

That's right, Doc. I don't see a coherent agenda emerging that would justify an organized effort

the main thing for everyone in this room is just showing up more in DC and letting people know you're coming

maybe it is slightly narrower than "all in". maybe it is defined in the context of an "open Internet" (or whatever) and it is a "whoever would like to be in...."

as individuals

Our strength also depends somewhat on alignment, and alignment is less clear without more conversation (which we could virtualize).

I'd love to meet with Susan C. on a regular basis, but ironically my status as a company rep actually constrains my ability to work directly with her.

I disavow any knowledge of anyone referred to as Steve K in this or any other BigHook backchannel.

I think Joanne is on to something by putting up a goal for the next two months, and some means for addressing them.

doc: right. and just because I met with susan, which required exactly the right requirment, doesn't mean that I could broker an introduciton for someone else

RT rick: work towards tangible goals, such as striking down state laws against muni networks, creating community-based coops to build local last mile/middle mile networks, using stimulus money to wire all public institutions with 100 mbps fiber, etc.

it is relaly weird to be told that a stock is moving because of a rumor about your thoughts - particularly when it isn't true.

Joanne: letters and filings going to FCC, NTIA... giving Susan the political strength to do what she needs to do. Letters coming from the well-respected really helps.

I think Rick's approach on goals is what happens on the right. They all know the general goals, and they all as individuals strike on them independently whenever the opportunity arises.

Just to back Joanne up, there is considerable political expertise in this room for those who want to talk about political strategy and mechanics of approaching government decision makers.

judi 00 i hope this administration changes that. there;s a rumor that the FCC doesn't even know what merger conditions it imposed during the period of media nconsolidation including the present -- let alone investigate the violation

Robin: good point.

Joanne: there is not a sense that there is a broader community, or consensus. We strengthen our case by helping the munis not just be a bunch of cities.

Robin & Rick +++

Robin: agreed

Joanne: the gov of Japan filed a document that had mixed results in washington. it says we've tried to use lots of different models and it worked.

Doc: is there a link for that?

There are, at any given time, approximately 5 peole lobbying on the Hill and at the agencies in the public interest

njames: I would like to think about international influence, how can we help towards affecting something in the States from Europe, and the other way around

Joanne: the administration is predisposed to agree. what it needs is pressure and support in the form of filings and letters and calls, and meetings in DC.

Robin: Agreed. Whatever you think of him, Karl Rove knew how to get things done. Sometimes our side's independent, decentralized spirit is our own undoing as an effective political force.

njames is exactly right... there are super-few folks working on the public interest side of things (you can fit them all into a single bar for happy hour ;)

Maybe we should each informally at least consider one visit to DC in the next two months. Perhaps Sascha or others who operate there could recommend who we might meet.

a very tiny bar @Sascha M

Leslie: think of this as another tool, not the only tool.

more of a booth, really.

Doc, yes that's exactly what I'm suggesting. commit to showing up and let it be known that you're coming with ideas you'd like to share

My point about the government of Japan was that it offered a fresh perspective and different data into a debate in which the FCC is looking for data and looking for new models. I think that the FCC has much to learn from our European colleagues.

And we cannot presume that everyone in this Administration will simply do the right thing without our constant influence.

maybe given importance of next few months legislation, indeed organizing around specific issues, joining together to meet people in DC, weigh in on x comment periods etc.

Who in DC will coordinate with Doc and others in DC?

joanne -- could you repeat what you said yesterday at mealtime about a disturbing move to redact some stimulus applications before posting them to broadband.gov?

dweinberger's point is right on, too

ooh, how many public interest lobbyists can we fit into a booth? heh.

I am in DC with a niche for coordinating things there

I'm happy to help from the dc side, in my day job or otherwise.

Neophytes fight the neo-fight.

In DC, a couple of decades is still "neophyte"

Sasha the neophyte

I want to show up in DC dressed like Sascha.

also, i just want to say that OneWebDay, Inc will be entering a deep evaluation and strategic planning process where a lot of these questions of influence will come up, and I invite the advice and suggestions

AGoldman: NTIA sent a letter to applicants giving them the opportunity to redact any confidential or proprietary information in their summaries of the applications that were to be made public.

Concurr with sascha. Need positive ideas.

upper Sascha: Digital lobbyist. Lower Sascha: Camper.

My 3 second card:

Sascha++

if I can help facilitate the public interest conversation (from HI), please let me know how I can help you. My time is not endless, but my enthusiasm and support is.

lol

Public interest side: geared up to shoot down bad ideas, not put together really GOOD ideas.

judi +++

Sascha: we're still geared up to pull down bad ideas. good ideas take a lot more skill and time for in-house. the challenge is to interconnect the geniuses in rooms like this, to craft good ideas and put our opponents in the position to shoot at our ideas.

both halve of sascha: ++++

Judi, you are an angel of grace and vision, thank you.

and both halves of judi too

research analyst look at the stimulus: *BROADBAND STIMULUS APPLICANTS REVEALED… Yesterday, the government organizations overseeing the broadband stimulus program (RUS and NTIA) posted a detailed listing/description of the 2,200 individual funding proposals submitted into the program. The proposals total $28 billion – four times the $7.2 billion expected to be spent on the entire program (summary statistics were released previously). *MORE BROADBAND WIRELESS AND “MIDDLE MILE” APPLICATIONS THAN EXPECTED… In parsing the data, we found that there are 737 individual Broadband Wireless proposals totaling $8.9 billion. There were 368 separate project proposals classified as Middle Mile applications (i.e. Optical Transport) for $9 billion in total dollar value. Both areas received more applications than we would have anticipated. *LAST MILE WIRELINE… We count 393 individual broadband proposals totaling $5.4 billion dollars -- the bulk of which are focused on rural markets. Based on our conversations with consulting engineering firms, we presume a large percentage of these last mile wireline deals are FTTP projects.

We will know whether we've been successful or not in the next 6-12 months. Need to boost collaboration by an order of magnatude.

How will we know Doc?

Steve: can you post a link to that analyst's work (or not, if it's proprietary)

Benoit: I want to crowd-source demand aggregation. I am willing to put that on a placard in my garden.

Benoit: crowdsourced demand aggregation

David I, please make my offer an official comment for the record?

rick ++

Hmm, I wonder if you pointed them up and painted a certain color, if the sats could pick it up and you could auto-map it on google maps or google earth ...

bumper sticker benoit

the placards, that is

the lack of concreteness was Blair's (famous) complaint about the participants in the process

Admin have right framework but don't know hoow to get from point a to point b. (Rick)

Rick: It's also more specific, concrete ideas. People in the amdinistration have the right ideas and apositions but don't know how to get from A to B. They crave the concrete. (And Rick knows.)

if I can help facilitate the public interest conversation (from HI), please let me know how I can help you. My time is not endless, but my enthusiasm and support is.

Ok Heres a suggestion: Fins me on facebook those who are interested in talking further on what we were discussing here

find

Jane C got you!

Judi, can you get us a luau?

RT Judi C: if I can help facilitate the public interest conversation (from HI), please let me know how I can help you. My time is not endless, but my enthusiasm and support is.

We could set up a Facebook BH group

Ahhh, why Facebook? Secure?

Also, there is going to be a time very soon, early next year, where people in this room should be publicly championing ther favorite ARRA-funded projects if you want to help insure that there is some ongoing Fed investment in the broadband space

Thank you David!

Facebook?

What about FriendFeed?

yay judi!!

Thanks Judi!

Other?

Judi ++++

I've known Judi C for going on 15 years. She has had an enormous influence, in the background usually, in so many things. for example, she introduced me to Chris Locke, who introduced me to David Weinberger, and therefore was behind Cluetrain... and much more.

thank you all for your conversation. Fascinating.

Thanks Judi

Lemmethink

Yes Nathan: Fiber to every public library! For 100 Mbps at $500-600 Million for the country, it would be [stimulus/USF/other] money well spent.

Here's my email: judic@manymedia.com

LAST POST!

bye Judi! pleasure to meet you virtually.

oh damn

Keep the campfire burning!

The archives are available

Bue Judi!

what happens at campfire stays in campfire, right? Right? Oh please god right?

onewebday.org

Bye all! Safe travels home!

Judi, Jon L, njames, Rick...are you guys on facebook+

?

rick, is google going to alter its logo for one web day?

I am no longer on Facebook (or friendfeed)

I'm on Facebook, Twitter, all the usual places.

OWD needs publicity

we need to start a website like the one jorge found for GWbush jokes. DW jokes, culled from BH chat rooms

Steve K: thanks

rick, is google going to alter its logo for one web day?

nathan: mention OWD and what connectivity means on your blog

heh http://twitter.com/judico

rick, is google going to alter its logo for one web day?

my blog

David I: OneWebDay .... I'll be in the UK doing something one webby.

hardlye ever twitter

Good question DW; the request is in the queue, but the company guards that real estate carefully.

I wonder if they organized "One Electricity Day" in the early 1900's? no slight intended...

dweinberger++

thanks, rick

Yay Isen for documenting the back channel. That's great and Doc has been doing a great job encapsulating the themes

I wonder if they organized "One Earth Day" in the 1970s ... oh, yeah, they did.

I don't know about one electricity day, but they do 5mn with the lights off once in a while...

Gratitude to Doc and Jon (and others) for helping with summaries and group digestion. Thank you.

OneWeb: delivery plan is for 3-year growth. Would like advisors.

Welcome, N.

strategic plan for growth - "one web week"?

doc and jon, hear hear

here here

wow, map tells a story: http://onewebday.org/onewebday-teams/

tbhanksw to cisco, google, ...

i will only buy sponsors' products from now on.

Also, Isen Brand anything

google toothbrush?

hah

Parting shot: Peter's Laws - The Creed of the persistent and passionate mind 1. If anything can go wrong, Fix It!!... To hell with Murphy! 2. When given a choice… Take Both!! 3. Multiple projects lead to multiple successes. 4. Start at the top then work your way up. 5. Do it by the book... but be the author! 6. When forced to compromise, ask for more. 7. If it's worth doing, it's got to be done right now. 8. If you can't win, change the rules. 9. If you can't change the rules, then ignore them. 10. Perfection is not optional. 11. When faced without a challenge, make one. 12. "No" simply means begin again at one level higher 13. Don't walk when you can run. 14. Bureaucracy is a challenge to be conquered with a righteous attitude, a tolerance for stupidity, and a bulldozer when necessary. 15. When in doubt: THINK! 16. Patience is a virtue, but persistence to the point of success is a blessing. 17. The squeaky wheel gets replaced. 18. The faster you move, the slower time passes, the longer you live. 19. The best way to predict the future is to create it yourself! 20. The ratio of something to nothing is infinite. 21. You get what you incentivize. 22. If you think it is impossible, then it is… for you. 23. An expert is someone who can tell you exactly how it can't be done. 24. The day before something is a breakthrough it's a crazy idea. 25. If it were easy it would have been done already. 26. Without a target you'll miss it every time. 27. Bullshit walks, hardware talks. 28. A crisis is a terrible thing to waste. 29. The world's most precious resource is the passionate and committed human mind. 30. If you can't measure it, you can't improve it. From http://www.futures.hawaii.edu/index.php

(change "string" to "fiber")

We all need more fibre in our diets!