good morning everybody

Good morning!

morning all

Oceania passing by outside

When is the Oceania tour?

reminder that there's a tour tonight at 5:30

I think 5:30 today, @Maggie

Woooooo!

Oh, and if anybody needs sunblock, I got the SPF 50

morning

howdy

thanks Maggie

is everyone in this chat that wants to be? If not, email me: judic@manymedia.com

It's cool. I had God block the sun today.

Faith-based cancer protection!

don't miss out on the vitamin D!

10-15 mins a day, 3-4 times a week should do

(time in the sun to get your needed Vit D)

pottery URL: http://www.thesoftearth.com/homepage.htm

Gooooooood morning.

Here's the link to ORBooks if you are interested in getting my book: http://www.orbooks.com/our-books/wikileaks/ Best to order copies from them, indie publisher, rather than Amazon. They do sell an ebook version.

Thanks Micah

Lightbulbs - also responsible for easy bake oven

If you went to follow me as @thrivable or @thrivability, please note that I mostly tweet through @NurtureGirl.

dangers with wikileaks, dangers with anonymous BUT they are an outcome of gov't/big business screwing people and just not letting go. that makes the solution informal and with some sharp edges

doc channels carlin

Doc's blog (one of 'em): http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/doc/

again here is jerry's brain http://webbrain.com/brainpage/brain/3D8005…

requested yesterday - paper on EINSTEIN 3 - http://www.eff.org/files/bellovin-einstein.pdf

I heart Jerry. :)

The only brain larger than Jerry's brain is the collective brain known as the internet

Jerry's REXpedition: http://therexpe (darn you Elliot!)

LOL

I was thinking about this article yesterday during the health care discussion - the title is misleading (The Triumph of New Age medicine) - http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archiv… - but it ties into what I was saying about placebo in the chat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Pepper'

BTW, The Intention Economy and The Relationship Economy are the same.

Hand up - I haven't shared my unintended consequence

Doc's upcoming book: http://www.amazon.com/Intention-Economy-Wh…

Chris, did you see Steve Silberman's excellent story about placebo and nocebo that was in Wired last year?

Yes

Someone's laptop sounds are on...

but really the Internet destroyed long distance

although the point is still germane

"at&t's unintended consequences are a failed result of the mental health system."

all of which is why the amazing part is that they are still so BIG

Is it possible that big old laggard companies are *by nature* insane?

also, the a.g. bell patent is the single most valuable patent of all time

failure of knowledge management, failure of communications

(insert Internet for mobile and all pepper's comments work)

I'm serious. What Pepper is saying applies to all big old companies facing disruption, with remarkably few exceptions.

This is what it looked like this morning at 6 AM out towards the sea: http://www.flickr.com/photos/10043599@N04/…

good! Progress has a hope

Look at banks right now.

Pepper's story leaves me with the question what to do with the fact that charging separate rates for local and long distance is more expensive than just charge a flat fee. Do we know how much we spent on invoicing processes in relation to the costs of actually delivering the service?

BT unloaded their mobile business, now O2.

but big companies have core competence in manipulating regulators

So, can amazing progress like happen if people understand the full potential of a technology?

Pepper: stay below the radar until you're really ready

The music industry ignored MP3 for the same reason: The quality wasn't good enough to represent a threat to the existing business model.

BTW, we've done our best with the VRM http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vendor_Relati… to keep it under the radar until we had working code.

If people knew how widespread and successful internet and mobile would be, would they have actually been able to become that?

Carlien R: no one could ever really measure that accurately, but you can be sure it is a LOT

He who is skilled in defence hides in the most secret recesses of the earth, making it impossible for the enemy to estimate his whereabouts. This being so, the places that I shall hold are precisely those that the enemy cannot attack.

Maggie: I don't think it is possible to predict, way too many variables.

Same with DTP/Mac in the early days: "real" graphic printers said it was way too poor in quality

Benoit - great picture

Maggie Koerth: from the early ISP days I would say that low expectations WERE key to success

It feels like when there's something that everybody is saying, "Oh, this will be big." Then there's this pile on of locking it down and protecting every little slice of the pie, which seems to stifle innovation.

folk histories of the Internet and of mobile!!

The folk history of AT&T sounds fabulous to me as well. I'd read that book.

People are the most mobile animals nature has yet made. (Spreading across the planet like a plague in a few dozen thousand years... only flies are more ubiquitous.) People are also the most talky animals. These are good capacities to bet on.

Maggie: yes, and the little projects that proceed without IP lock-up and its burdens pull ahead

What will Motorola invent now?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Cooper…)

carlien - your intuition is right. the cost of the billing systems is (and was) much larger than the "cost" of the actual minutes. per elliot noss's stories about cellular billing plans the cost of billing is a HUGE cost driver in the industry. hOWEVER, SIMPLIFYING THE billing would require the people who work at the telcos to voluntarily commit suicide.

What if the rabbit goes down a snake's hole?

marty cooper in this infographic http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/smart…

Elliot N: I predict that in the future making the payment (and all the things related to that, like sending an invoice, filling in your tax forms etc) will cost society more than actually delivering the content or providing for the service.

This is precisely what Carlien and I were discussing at breakfast Steve. (and good morning to you)

Hi jean!

AT&T breakup fee involves spectrum transfer to T-Mobile - example of AT&T hubris that could make T-Mobile a viable competitor. Beauty

Does anyone have a URL for the breakup fee including spectrum?

What is the corporate version of hubris?

hubris

Right, because corporations are people too.

lol

studies are less cost effective than building new billing systems imho

immortal people, that is. Or is that Zombies....

And some junkies are still sniffing glue.

The rise of the Stupid Company

Stupid Company vs. Stupid Network: the Smackdown.

Yes, who is writing that Herman?

Herman - I thought Stupid Company was Isen's ISP

They do it themselves..

The "Jim Cicconi Can Get This Deal Through" rule.

Judi, I'd love to get a link to that

from Judi's site: http://manymedia.com/tag/24-deficiencies/

But you can still fail with One Big Deficiency. Why waste resources?

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-08-31/u… (Rejection by regulators would leave AT&T liable to pay Deutsche Telekom $3 billion in cash, to give T-Mobile USA wireless spectrum, and to reduce charges for calls into AT&T’s network, a package valued at as much as $7 billion, Deutsche Telekom has said.)

my stupid network beats your stupid company 9 out of 10 times.

(direct link to the PDF paper)

some former colleagues of me at the dutch central bank wrote a book about the costs of payments: (called payments are no free lunch) http://www.cepr.org/meets/wkcn/1/1627/pape…

thanks Jerry

CHECK YOUR SOUND AND MUTE YOUR PC!

On corporate stupidity: http://www.despair.com/meetings.html

thank you whoever muted their pc

how much of BH is AT&T PTSD therapy?

+1 Micah

thanks Doc

Hey, Elliot, don't make Ting a brand yet.

why?

got another thought?

you got a ting or two to tell him?

"Companies hold meetings because they cannot actually masturbate." - Dave Barry

Judi Clark:

Fortunately, Bighook is not actually a company.

The only way to preserve the wisdom of the crowd is to protect the independence of the individual.

If companies were people they could actually masturbate.

I think Verizon invented "Fat Rate Pricing."

yes Benoit?

Judi Clark: we have a saying in France: the intelligence of a group is the intelligence of the least intelligent member divided by the number of members...

this is a function of punitive overages

Doc, they were short an L that day in Marketing

intelligence in groups can be decreased by gathering or increased by gathering - it depends how it is organized

The only way to preserve the wisdom of the crowd is to protect the independence of the individual. About stupid crowds and stupid companies depending on the wisdom of the crowd: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405…

exactly Carlien

PSTN ... Please Stop Talking Now ?

"Corporations are people, my friends" -- Mitt Romney

"The only way to preserve the wisdom of the crowd is to protect the independence of the individual." - That's going in my book, Carlien. Thanks!

companies ARE people - haven't you been p[aying attention to the supreme court and mitt romney (grin)

plain stupid telephone network?

no wait, plain smart tele network. no stupid about that!

that is the "china is cheaper than canada" thing I was talking about

still

remember, most countries on Earth used to make most of their Government money by charging extortionate fees

Termination fees are a huge income for state telco's

So, how do we reconcile the effects of herd behavior (stupid crowds) with swarm intelligence (smart crowds). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swarm_intelligence & http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_behavior

We've been pushing for some meaningful data collection on peering at FCC and FTC...

every ruler's brother-in-law wanted the PTT concession

"ITU is trying to fix Tom E's fix"

I forgot my unintended consequence: Thinking that aging is birth control, which is how two 60-somethings have kids aged 41, 40, 38 and 14.

unlike toll booths, with peering arbitrage, no one knows where the tolls are located or how much they cost.

Thanks to unintended consequences, you can make your own grandchild.

heh, Doc, that young one is a good consequence

Elliot: Is there a URL that has Ting pricing? I don't see anything on the public site, just a FAQ and blog.

Sascha: I seem to recall FCC Chair G testified to Congress that the FCC was not interested in looking at peering after Level 3/Comcast dustup

DIY!

Chris -- I think Genachowski said the FCC was not interested in looking at anything, but would strongly consider adding peering to the list of things they weren't going to look into. ;)

Hypercomplicated Billing Systems (HBS) = Jobs! - steve

ting pricing is only in the beta community at tingmobile.ning.com (which you are all welcome to). I will post a recent pdf of pricing in a sec

Sascha: well put

The other benefit of prepaid is that by buying your top up cards online, you can avoid sales tax ;)

FYI - I am running Ubuntu linux on this machine. It is MUCH faster for web browsing than at least windows. I can choose to boot into Linux or windows at start-up. If anyone wants to try it as an alternative operating system on a windows machine let me know it is pretty easy to set up.

Ting Pricing.pdf

@Ellliot, do you have to be a US national ?

no benoit. if you come here often (do you come here often ;-)) than there is a really cool opportunity with the right phone

the pricing I just posted is VERY close but not the final pricing

can we open a window?

the windows over here (behind Benoit) are open

thanks

How does prepaid balance out if you use a lot of internet/data?

need to get that fan going again

You can open windows if you're sure to latch them with the thingies on them.

Elliot Noss, I guess my question was "what about international roaming"?

Brough's company: netBlazr Inc. http://netblazr.com/

prepaid vs postpaid is actually mostly false semantics. it now more means "did I take a phone subsidy" or not

When my husband and I added it up, it looked like it was going to be about the same price for prepaid Virgin as for Verizon and Sprint packages

If you use data, the best prepaid carrier right now is Virgin - $25/30 per month for 300 minutes + 2.5gb data

and phone subsidy = borrow $200 @ 18% which just makes NO sense

Ok, so I think this is where it gets me. I end up using closer to 500 minutes a month.

That's a good deal. Can you use it on an iPhone or iPad?

avg. data usage in the US = 150 mb

Elliot: Are the wholesale rates for text messages high? I'm surprised by your text rates

It's amazing to me how well carriers hide unsubsidized phone plans

1000 incoming text messages = 9 bucks?

downtown.png

Brough slide that we all love

From this presentation: http://www.slideshare.net/Brough/disruptiv…

I am a heavy data user, and I average about 800Mb/mo.

Christopher, do you have a link to the Virgin plan?

@chris I think it is only outbound. let me find out

and it is $3/1000 at the top end

Speaking of crazy prices... anyone catch the New Yorker investigative piece into TWC bills? Well worth a read! http://www.newyorker.com/humor/2011/04/04/…

I've done little of what I planned to do when I was young, and everything I'm known for I've done since I was 50.

Elliot: Even if it is outbound, why is the cost of transmitting 1000 text messages 9 bucks? Surely it is cheap to carry 140 characters

Except 3 of your 4 kids...

those are my people!! :-)

my costs are much cheaper, but I pay per message not per byte

Doc: Tell more young people that. It's kind of awesome to hear when you're at the age where you're just starting to feel like you're not going to have time to do everything you want to do.

Roxane: "They (the gov/market) haven't seen anything yet."

I was at a meeting between Silicon Valley folks and Nokia a few years back. After hearing many awesome ideas for mobile phones, a top Nokia guy said (this is close to verbatim), "Those are all nice, but we and our operator partners know, feature for feature, what we're going to put in our phones going 3 to four years out."

Roxane: I want to hear your 3 minute rant.

To dig a trench we might employ ten folks with shovels or improve productivity by using one backhoe and driver - making 9 folks unemployed

Think of Nokia+Microsoft's intended consequence of their mating. What are your bets for the success of that?

@chris m that newyorker piece is already in our marketing plans

We could instead of using shovels use teaspoons and create 100 jobs

for about a day

Doc, I put their odds of success in the smartphone market as nearly nil, which paradoxically means they're worth watching as a wild card

More AT&T PTSD. Fascinating.

there is fascinating peter drucker writing about how innovative ATT was in the '20s

the dinosaur, it has smaaall brain

Maybe, like the Stegasaurus, their brains were in their ass.

10-15 nodes max, eh Jerry?

yeah

Guy: +1

AMPS = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Mobi…

Micah: I think if you don't have PTSD from AT&T, you are still trying to figure out how the hell we got to where we are...

at least I am

don't get me wrong. i get the magnitude of AT&T's role.

Doc S.: and that is why Nokia is having a very difficult time right now. A friend of mine was at a conference in Berlin this spring and talked to a Nokia guy who was telling that they had to fire a lot of their developers of apps, then facing the problem that all their former developers were now working for themselves and competing with Nokia at very low costs. So the unintended consequence of firing people was that they had mobilized their own competition. You don't need to be on the payroll of a large company to develop apps...

Bill: Most important doctors are the one's you'll never meet: your hematologist, radiologist and... and... otolaryngologist?

Right Carlien, then when they decide to turn on Microsoft's dime, they've got competition from the original team who are not constrained by corporate requirements...

And yet much of what kills Americans would be ameliorated by a moderate amount of physical activity a few days a week. Then they could live long enough to die of something else, as Andrew reminded me last night.

so to be glib, the innovation comes from underestimated newcomers, the lobbying comes from superannuated incumbents. And too often, the lobbying wins.

Right. When I was in Helsinki last winter, at a conference, few worked for Nokia, which was a smaller part of the Finish economy than ever, yet every Finn, to a person, once worked for Nokia

Carlien R - friends close and enemies closer - especially enemies organisations create by firing staff!

Coal is the reason we didn't destroy all our forests in America

Of course, the aerosols have their own issues.

damned if we do, damned if we don't? (Coal, renewable, green economy)

The health impacts of that stuff is staggering

And the natural gas frakking is pretty ugly

Maggie Koerth: what do you mean?

my conclusion from bills talk is we should just give up altogether on trying to make things "better" (grin)

Re: Bill St. Arnaud: the New Yorker piece that illustrates how very high medical costs depend on local medical community culture was by Atul Gawande in June 2009,

Steve: Sure, and have a beer

URL for Gawande piece: http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/06…

Cancer, lung disease -- the stuff coming out of smokestacks, when it isn't scrubbed is incredibly dangerous to human health

The photo here... http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/doc/tag/powde… ... of the Powder River Basin strip mines in Wyoming, is used both by environmental groups to show devastation of prairie and by Wyoming booster groups to show how their economy is booming,

Judi: That's the wrong way to look at it "damned if do, damned if don't."

It's a complicated problem, but all downsides aren't equal just because they're downsides

reframe please?

Molly looks like Gwenn at 7.

Everything has unintended consequences that we might not like.

That's ok. That's how the world works.

Maggie +1

The challenge is figuring out what consequences we can live with. Some are easier to adapt to than others.

true, chaos is (for me) the better framework than "damned if"

Maggie: right - airbags have drawbacks but are net positives

I think a big issue of dealing with our energy problems is learning to be comfortable with the fact that nothing is perfect. And that that's ok.

transparency has its drawbacks too, but it's a net positive

This might actually be my 3 minute rant ... "The New Optimism"

the notion of a "finished" portrait is an archaic idea.

and the eyebrows are now almost gone... interesting.

it comes from scarcity culture

but original works are scarce, no?

how about a portrait .gif, ala Harry Potter?

portraits with comments

Oh, Micah. That's fabulous

My friend Paolo says cats came to Earth so they could make slaves of Standing Monkeys.

Rashomon for painting

Hah! My dad says that about his cat, Paolo.

I didn't tell you that Paolo is a cat.

coffee!!

this is better than Bach :)

fascinating: Why is there a gender pay gap among senior managers? It's tempting to blame evil patriarchal capitalists. But there's more to it than this. There's good evidence that women are - on average - less aggressive negotiators than men, and so prone to get worse deals. Women are also less overconfident and so less likely to get top management jobs. And they are also less likely (pdf) to want to enter into the sort of high-stakes competitions that allocate top jobs.

But why do these differences exist? A neat experiment sheds light.

Economists got some MBA students to do some mental arithmetic, being paid according to the number of sums they got right. They were offered a choice of payment methods. They could either be paid simply according to the number they got right, or they could be paid much more, but only if they got more answers correct than three rivals. So they could choose between piecework and competition.

Before they were given this choice, the subjects were asked to fill in a questionnaire. One group was given a questionnaire about their career, the other about family and gender issues.

And here's the thing. Among those given the career questionnaire, men and women were equally likely to chose the competition - a quarter did so. However, when given the gender questionnaire, 37% of men chose competition, but only 7% of women did so. This suggests that an aversion to competition among women is not some biological given, but is instead a product of their social identity. And a very simple reminder of this identity induces women to shy away from competition, and men to seek it. This is consistent with research by Uri Gneezy and colleagues, which has shown that, in a matrilineal society, it is women (pdf) rather than men who choose to compete. It's also consistent with George Akerlof's and Rachel Kranton's under-rated book, Identity Economics, which shows how our identities and the social norms attached to them shape our economic behaviour.

And it's also consistent with the feminist claim that gender is, at least in part, a social construct.

For those who like their Bach spiced up, check out http://www.amazon.fr/Play-Back-2000-Jacque….

weeee're baaaack!

It Might As Well Be Spring

http://twitter.com/#!/mlsif'

I think it is VERY likely we have a 3rd party candidate in the 2012 presidential election. either a right wing wack job or a conservative moderate trying to offer an alternative to the right wing wack-jobs. we will see...

I would love a third party that isn't defined by it's wack-jobiness

pierre omidyar, ebay founder

Maggie Koerth: wack-jobiness LOL

anonymous are the white-blood cells of the Internet

I think third parties will be tracking us with cookies. Wait, they already are: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405…

BTW: Here's the ballot from the last Minneapolis mayoral race. We've got instant runoff voting and it's produced a much wider range of options. Some of which are wack-jobby (see Edgertonite guy), and some of which aren't. http://boingboing.net/2009/11/03/fun-with-…

Last night we were talking about the unintended consequences of the cell phones and things like Twitter - flash mob looting.

"what can we do to encourage the asking of good questions?" - implies we are comfortable asking questions

Tim Nulty has a great rant on IRV. The way IRV is implemented is very important and quite flawed in most instances.

and that we know what "good questions" are

Salman Kahn starts with good answers, knowing how many good questions don't get them in school: http://www.khanacademy.org/

IRV?

Chris: I'd love to see that if you can find it. The basic idea is awesome, I think. But I don't know a lot about the wonky background. and the wonky background is always important

instant runoff voting

Instant Runoff Voting

ah, thanks.

You have to ask Tim - I don't think he wrote it down.

lots of stuff about questions, in my Brain: http://webbrain.com/u/12YR

see esp QBQ (the question behind the question) and Questions That Work

Micah: We need better training for journalists on the seduction of insideriness and the risks of being too friendly with the people you report on. It's a huge issue for political journalists (and part of why you get that deferential thing) and I think it's a bigger problem for science journalists than we often realize. We are also often too deferential.

The gist is this: imagine a 3-way race with candidate A, candidate B, and looney C. No majority, so they toss out looney C and redistribute ONLY those voting for the looney (this is an example not meant to attack all 3rd parties, just the crazy ones). In this case, the looney's determine the election. Would be better to cast out a candidate and tabulate EVERYONE's second choice rather than just the fringe voters.

It's just less obvious

Jerry, can you do your Brain on a Mac or Linux?

Oh, that makes way lots of sense Chris

I'm assuming a Mac now that you're on the Dark Side.

credit Tim - possibly from a conversation here one year ago

Any Vermonter can tell you the weird result Burlington got from IRV and how it prolonged bad governance. Doesn't mean,of course, that more traditional voting hasn't had bad consequences from time to time as well:-}

RW Apple's obit: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/05/us/05apple.html

Side note: He also did some AMAZING food and culture reporting.

Tom: Yes- observed Burlington politics from afar made me much less excited about IRV... which is also have now in my St Paul, MN

Maggie, on being deferential, what role is real learning? One must honor an expertise to learn from that, but slippery slope to buying party lines (Science or other journalism)

Fumi has a great shirt Lev and I just noticed

The consequence of early Iowa primaries is corny ethanol

was that my outside voice?

ethanol has its place... Wall Street and Iowa politics greatly distorted it

"never trust a man in a prom dress and fedora"

re third parties in 2012, we're going to have a new "internet-based" thing called Americans Elect. It has $20M in funding and is paying for ballot access petitioning everywhere. They've collected nearly 2 M signatures in CA. See this post I wrote for all the details: http://techpresident.com/blog-entry/americ…

Judi: Yeah, and I'm not sure how to balance that. But I think that journalists need to be a lot more aware of the potential pitfalls. And right now, we aren't really reminded about the risks, just drilled on the benefits.

very cool evangelist against consumerism

took evangelical methods and tone against consumerism

Passivism seems to be working.

Oh, Micah! I heard about that. I'm kind of excited about that and kind of simultaneously skeptical of the impact it can actually make.

Micah, would like to hear more about Americans Elect

next time I need to get contraband across a customs line, I am calling Jean...

Instances of significant INTENDED consequences are significantly over-reported since we make up the stories after the fact. Unintended consequences should be the expectation for perturbations of compplex systems since they're essentially chaotic; doesn't mean not to perturb but warns us to assume that that we know what'll happen.

ummm....is there a drive in coming?

Love the Yes men

+1 for yes men

I don't like being a yes man. Instead I'm a maybe man.

Yes Men pretending to be US Chamber of Commerce changing stance on climate change: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/10/19/c…

Chris--IMHO it's a very serious effort that ~may~ disrupt the two-party process around March/April 2012. I'm concerned that they're not transparent about their funding and are meant to be a stalking horse for a centrist austerity candidate, rather than something that reflects the center of public opinion on the issues.

you know Doc, that's the first sign that you might be a lawyer.

I have problems with the Yes Men. It's a little too much about them.

Micah, where does their funding come from? Do you know.

Micah, thanks. I was naturally suspicious of them but thus far too lazy to look into them.

Americans Elect, not the Yes Men

Cult of personality, ruins so many things

Thanks Steve. :P

Friedman on AE: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/24/opinion/…

Unintended consequences of many of these Middle Mile Community Anchor Institution projects: they connect the schools, muni buildings, etc., and there are no anchor tenants left to build a network that would actually connecting _everyone_

Maggie, I go into detail in my post. The sole named funder is Peter Ackerman, former Drexel Burnham guy who is an investment banker and also a major foreign policy honcho at Tufts, funds an international center on nonviolence.

chris, how much interest/knowledge is there at the very local level for Internet self-sufficiency?

Ackerman also served on a CATO board initiative a few years ago on privatizing social security

economics in limericks

Said a rational woman: "What then of it?
Though it's pointless persuading the men of it,
The marginal cost
Of virginity lost
May outweigh the marginal benefit."

he's put in $2.5M, and claims to have rolled up $20M in additional funding commitments

mankiw's econ blog - http://www.limericksecon.com/p/ten-limeric…

they are spending real money, too. this is going to be a factor in 2012, like it or not.

Jerry: In most places, not a lot. In some places a lot. I would correct you gently: not self-sufficiency, but self-reliance. Self-sufficiency is often wasteful, unnecessarily duplicating expensive investments...

thanks for the important nuance, chris. hence ILSR, eh?

Jerry: in most places where people are interested, it is from necessity due to massive underinvestment and little hope of that changing. People cannot sell homes without access to broadband, for instance.

Thanks Chris :) My T-shirt photo > http://www.flickr.com/photos/fumi/6103387348/

6103387348_4805d87786.jpg

Fumi

nice shirt!

Thanks!

+1 Isen! exactly right

Micah: Thank you! Good to know.

Quick question: Do you have to play your 3-min rant card to be put into the drawing?

Maggie: no

drawing is from your name card

Now we have .wegotya

and more!

iEXDi.jpeg

electile-dysfunction.png

is there a great document on the web splaining the misconceptions and realities about the new TLDs?

no one knows

rilly?

i got a friend in Portugal to register iscorru.pt and isnotcorru.pt

there's no good FAQ file?

SO much energy went in to trying to KNOW

from bruce schneir: There's been a forged Google certificate out in the wild for the past month and a half. Whoever has it -- evidence points to the Iranian government -- can, if they're in the right place, launch man-in-the-middle attacks against Gmail users and read their mail. This isn't Google's mistake; the certificate was issued by a Dutch CA that has nothing to do with Google.This attack illustrates one of the many security problems with SSL: there are too many single points of trust.

did you guys KNOW what with happen with the Internet

I guess I don't quite understand what the risks are about this. What's the scary part?

also Lauren Weinstein has some posts on it. Check vortex.com

i still don't see why open TLDs is a problem in the first place.

Sascha: one problem is that too many other people think it's a problem

Sascha: I think it will confuse the hell out of the clueless->average user

so it's an NFC moment...

+1 Elliot

and poor steve is the one who governments will yell at. it is fair for him to be scared

Jerry, NFC=no fucking clue?

zackly, Micah :)

Elliot: is your Ting service GSM or CDMA?

Jerry, isn't all of life an NFC moment?

depends how you see life, Dr. Sifry :)

AND if we let sascha wire up africa with the $$$ then that will dwarf any negative unintended consequence!!

lol

Jim F: cdma :-(

but CDMA phones with open GSM slots are my goal and THAT makes a great world phone

And we see AT&T pushing bills through state legislatures to gut the PUC and allow telcos to abandon exchanges if they want to (as I understand it).

Jim F: we can offer this now http://www.motorola.com/Consumers/US-EN/Co…

Elliot, this is going to be Legen... [wait for it]... dary!

AFAIK, all aspects of universal service and the public network are being abandoned. the only reasons to keep them is if they lead to tax or regulatory opportunities

local is on its own

Jim F: but I am holding out for this http://www.motorola.com/Consumers/US-EN/Co…

previous comment meant from the carrier's perspective, just to be clear

Benoit: "The problem is connectivity."

yes!

Benoit: the problem is UNIVERSAL connectivity

thanks Chris

=)

Connecting rural areas is not charity on the part of urban folks, it creates benefits for all of us. Universal connectivity is good for everyone.

+1 Benoit

For those who think "everyone has an iPhone" - you need to redefine your understanding of "everyone."

Nielsen-Sept-1-Smartph…

Chris: yes, but in some cases (probably not most), rural is a lifestyle choice. Should we agree to always subsidize yuppies moving to Montana that need their broadband?

why I am short apple (not necessarily expecting it to go down but betting it doesn't go up much from here). Used the money from that short to buy a basket of JNPR, AKAM, EMC and CALX.

@steve that is just showing smartphones (if I understand it correctly)

Jim F: I regularly head up to Northern MN to visit inlaws. For everyone that has made a lifestyle choice, there are 5 who live there, grew up there, and have not made a lifestyle choice.

elliot - yes. http://www.bgr.com/2011/09/01/nielsen-andr…

I don't see how it makes sense to frame the question based on the exception.

@pepper not while "lawful intercept" includes the enforcement of private property IP rights

Ubiquitous access to connectivity is as much about affordability as it is a technology problem

Pepper: ++

this Pepper guy, he should have a policy job, like at the FCC...

For one reason, I don't want my inlaws to have to run half a mile to get reliable 911 service

Jerry ++

I don't buy 98%

And FWIW, my inlaws actually live right next to a reservation

I'd be happy to volunteer to dig a fiber trench to the various reservations, then install OpenBTS and wifi umbrellas for them. let's get that done

Jim, I'm with Chris on this

Having a lot of family in rural areas, the numbers of yuppies are dwarfed massively by the number of working class and rural poor

Take the outside-in approach and focus future-proofing broadband first for those folks that don't have today

Chris: yes, 1 in 5 might be right. Northern MN is economically challenged many ways; I'm happy to work on that somehow, I'm reluctant to say subsidize local phone/broadband only

That is where I agree with Pepper

Chris: me too

Maggie Koerth: do those folks NOT have cell phones? I have no idea, but I wasn't clear if you were inferring this

No, they've got cell phones. But Internet is much more iffy

universal connectivity at the network level is an absolute necessity. Note though that many applications are closed islands- Skype for example. Not desirable but not theend of the world

I know people still using dial up

Access to internet in rural communities is a big damn deal

If only we had a meaningful national broadband map that didn't suck bigtime.

Sascha: yes - a poor map is worse than no map

Sascha +1

What cell phones mean in rural communities is also an issue. In the Ozarks, where my mother lives, cell phones are not the thing you can rely on. Because the coverage is so random

Micah, meet Matthew who may help map out some reservations in a meaningful way. Matthew, Micah is sitting right next to you. :)

what amazes me is that this "access" debate has remained so focused on telephone service and not broadband.

We need a national unlicensed GSM band.

So we think of cell phones as these ubiquitous things. They think of it as something you turn off most of the time and turn on occasionally for emergencies or travel.

Jim F Q: Do those areas in VT have electricity? Tim N A: Not this week

So that people who want to build their own cell phone networks can do so.

Pepper: the ilec's will continue to get funded because of the 10% of their customers who don't have either broadband or cellular coverage. So we need to close this gap to take that excuse away. meanwhile have to use at least some of "their" subsidy to make sure the alternatives are built out.

so it's great that cell phones have disrupted land-line phone service, but we need as a matter of public policy to fill in some of their connectivity gaps

I'm fine with moving to relying on cell phones in rural areas if and when they are actually reliable in those areas. I think Pepper makes a good point that we could get there if we made that the priority.

+1 Chris

the story of me, the story of we, the urgency of now IS a great way to organize a public talk

Sascha: I believe the Netherlands has an unlicensed GSM band, plus a number pool, and required interconnection!

Hmm, not sure about unlicensed GSM

Jim, yes, they've repurposed the DECT band.

Universal connectivity and the consequences for our economy and money system? Isn’t money in the most basic form a mean to connect people, trying to overcome differences geographically and in time between demand and supply? In the Netherlands 70% of our economy is about services, what will happen for example to the taxi industry if I am able to arrange a lift from a to b just by sending a tweet to the folks in my neighbourhood instead of calling a cab?

power corrupts and powerpoint corrupts absolutely - thanks David :)

So it already works... at CCC last month people set up multiple DIY GSM networks.

WORD

Carlien, that's a good example of how open networks can enable sharing of underutilized resources

Obviously, part of Commotion repurposes GSM bands, but would be *really* nice if that wasn't in a legal no-mans land.

Martin: "There is no single source of truth."

Is he saying "There is o physics of people?" Not sure.

Herman: I believe it's low power (100mw but don't know about EIRP), intended for indoors

"amplifying faint signals from the future" is a great personal tagline (I'm pretty sure that's how Martin described himself)

"Those in leadership have no special access to truth." In fact, I believe insularity is leadership's fatal condition.

Back when I ran a company, and all kinds of weird politics were going on one level down, I gathered my whole staff for a lay-it-all-out meeting in which I said, "The world is full of secrets that only I don't know!"

Doc, leadership makes its own reality. As in: Karl Rove to Ron Suskind:

The aide said that guys like me were "in what we call the reality-based community," which he defined as people who "believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality." ... "That's not the way the world really works anymore," he continued. "We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality—judiciously, as you will—we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors…and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do."

</irony>

I didn't remember saying that, but it was quoted back to me later. I also said, "wherever three or more are gathered, at least two are playing politics."

Mobile access is quickly become a necessity even where there is fixed access. It's no longer acceptable to have someone freeze to death at night on a rural road because someone else didn't want to see a cell tower in their neighborhood - or because funding wasn't available to build the tower or backhaul to it. Mobile access can meet fixed connectivity needs even though at higher prices and lower bandwidth than ideal.Fixed access CAN'T meet mobile needs at all. So priority ought to go to mobile coverage and the fixed infrastructure which supports it (and can also support fixed last mile). One key to making this work worldwide is development of white spaces and, in the US, non-approval of at&t/tmobile

Tom, that brings up an interesting question: How much research has gone into the psychology and methods of dealing with NIMBY?

Old Bell System mantra: service denied is better than service degraded

I've looked at that a little in relation to wind generation systems. But I think some of the lessons from that don't necessarily apply to mobile/broadband.

I like the Network of Probabilities.

METAPHORS ARE EVIL !!!

statistically multiplied connections do not work as pipes.

At a pragmatic level more energy has gone into harnessing nimby to block competition.But you ask a good question.

Precontention - parallels here with optimizing CPU pipelining

Ah, Benoit, but try to think and speak without using metaphor. Can't be done. (My 3-minute rant from several Bighooks ago.)

Disagree, Benoit. Bad metaphors are evil. But without good metaphors, laypeople wouldn't understand anything about any area of expertise.

Maggie +

Precontention sounds like demand-pull systems

Well, I've heard the internet compared to water networks, highways, pizza delivery, electricty, railways, etc. So which is it ?

Herman Wagter: or precognition - aka the (G655) Crystal Ball :)

Apple is better at being IBM, Microsoft and AT&T than any of those were.

Metaphors are evil because a/ they eliminate context and bring in a different context (not matter how well meaning) and b/ they can be (and very often are) used to carry subtext that the original "item" doesn't.

How about, that there is life after death?

Exceptional talk Martin thank you!

I'm not saying it's easy or possible not to use metaphors, but I try to avoid them as often as possible and they generate an instant suspiscion in me.

Martin, thank you

Very good talk Martin!

Micah S., it is a good example of the benefits of open network indeed: me as a citizen getting the ride from a to b most probably at lower costs and from an environmental view there is one ride less made. For government however it means a decrease in GNP and a higher unemployment rate (assuming that this example will happen on a larger, regular scale). One of the things I learned about government is that want to have a business case with a forecast of growth in GNP before investing in networks!

enjoyed your talk, Martin, like your question all approach

Cisco's bandwidth forecasts are laughably too low which I can "prove" using Cisco's own estimates. They have drastically under-estimated total internet households and bandwidth per household.

Carlien--if someone doesn't spend money on a taxi ride because they got a ride from a neighbor, not only are there positive environmental effects (ridesharing) but that person now has money they can spend on other things. why assume that this hurts GNP?

I think we agree on the problem and disagree on the solution. I think metaphors work as a good way to help people find their footing on a subject, but they have to get more than the metaphor. And the problems you talk about happen when journalists/explainers offer up a metaphor and never get into the context behind it.

And I think that happens when the people creating the metaphor don't actually understand what they're metaphorizing

its about affordable and available access in the places and at the times we the people want

Great talk, Martin. Particularly good point that open networks don't assure open apps - Skype,for example is a closed partially-voice network except for the degenerate cases of skypeIn and SkypeOut. Not the end of the world IMHO as long as the network doesn't preclude openness. The PSTN used to provide universal voice connectivity (doesn't any more because there ARE other voice apps). But momentum is leading regulators to try to assure that all voice be interconnected at the app level rather than just assuring that the network level is interconnected

Cisco's VNI: http://www.cisco.com/en/US/netsol/ns827/ne…

me want bob's slides!

the "assume our values will prevail" is a BIG statement. I assume it, but for complex reasons

lunch will preclude my 3-minute card I fear

But the politically operative values today are such as these: http://www.theonion.com/articles/tea-party…

Hmm, is the practice in AU/USA/UK and other countries closer to the "totalitarian" states than we care to admit?

Companies are rapidly replacing nation states in controlling Internet traffic.

Anyone else follow the Global Crossing/Level 3 merger?

A really basic problem with upfront funding for anything broadband is that it is always wasteful in comparison with the post-facto alternative i.e. it is better to reward those who risk and demonstrate their willingness to invest than pay for promises

Doc, our values need a political vehicle

Guy, pay for promises? Our incumbent telcos are good at that now.

organized minorities beat disorganized majorities

syria is busy right now

ITRs and WCT. (just writing this down as a bookmark.)

L3-Global Crossing Per…

The Latin for "light carrier" is Lucifer ;)

Gonna policy hack the IGF with Bob Pepper -- more BigHook awesomenesses!

Pepper calls for action, an agenda for organizing "us"

Pepper shoulda been wearing the Guy Fawkes mask!

right

butts at rest that tend to stay at rest...

I told Ram about this last night, but I have a friend teaching journalism in China right now. His students don't understand why you wouldn't censor media. "If you tell people everything, they'll go crazy." They think you have to limit what people know to maintain order.

"we have been lucky with the incompetence of the competition" - SOB

An ITU guy gave a talk I attended last summer where he did not utter the word "Internet" once, but wouldn't shut up about "broadband." THEY see a difference.

Elliot: there's this moment you realize there's nothing behind the "or else..."

beautiful

yes!

build local

desperate weak people are super dangerous - especially when in power.

Elliot: Feed ICANN, it embodies our values

So what Elliot is saying is "do" i the left column.

Not just talk.

Doc and Elliot--It's not clear that it's enough to just DO the left column.

Micah Sifry: You don't have to convince me. I can extend this way of thinking into the extreme: the tax driver may have less income but when other type of services are also available at lower of no costs the driver itself will also benefit from the open network. The problem is that in our society we think in terms of growth and in financial terms not in the level of services actually delivered.

the Hugh MacLeod comic Elliot mentioned: http://gapingvoid.com/2005/12/14/dinosaur-meteor/

"Sway" is the song

Carlien: I get that. Why not argue, then, that robust open networks enable new businesses to develop, and also make it possible for people (and govt) to do more with less. If we are indeed in a time of shrinking public resources, we need to squeeze value from underutilized assets like the connections people can make with each other.

You would hardly argue for eliminating public bus services because they cost taxi drivers their jobs

Judi - http://prezi.com/ps5jvbmmoztl/present/?auth_key=hrgr5ga

Micah, exactly. Los Angeles was made possible with water. There were huge politics around it (see Chinatown), but for the most part nobody said what couldn't be done with it except when it got scarce. When connectivity is abundant, there will be positive economic outcomes. You want jobs, enable connectivity.

ICANN needs great people to join their Board and other policy-making groups - there is an annual nomination process - Elliot & I have both served on it [disclosure - i have been on the icann board since 2009]

Bloomberg on AT&T/T-Mobile merger (and cancellation) terms: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-08-31/u…

The Nearness of You

Misty

Polka Dots and Moonbeams

Welcome back! I hope everyone enjoyed lunch

How AT&T conquered the 20th century

Anyone familiar with: Network Nation: Inventing American Telecommunications - Richard John ? worth reading?

Andrew: URL from lunch discussion for full article on backbone traffic & effects of L3/Global Crossing -- http://www.renesys.com/blog/2011/04/level-…

Chris -- yes, definitely worth reading.

This came up over lunch yesterday. This $50 device is totally awesome, and allowed me to cut the cord. A VOIP telephone adapter that connects to Google Voice (and thus, free calls). http://www.amazon.com/OBi110-Service-Bridg…

We should change "has entered the room" to "is in da house"

or, watch Network Nation special event with Richard John for 2-hour synopsis of his book: http://newamerica.net/events/2010/network_nation

I don't know if Obihai has worked with Google to build it, or if they did it on their own, but it is hugely popular with VOIP folks. Was sold out for 2-3 months after it launched

Doc, in the archives of this chat, those will be gone. Eberyone will be in da house.

BTW: this chat WILL be archived on isen.com/bighook/2011 in a week or two.

I don't believe Obihai worked with us in developing the device, but it certainly works well with GV.

Rick: It surprises me that you guys don't market it (or hell, buy them). It is surprisingly easy to setup, and is a great way to highlight how awesome Google Voice is.

we wanted to give others a chance

ram and I were dividing and conquering :-)

tm lawyers are WAY self-interested in that

feature of lawyers (tm)

Great chart showing just how shitty the US employment situation is.

US employment to popul…

it hasn't tanked yet!

that is a 1950 to 2011 time scale

Anyone got the stats showing growth in female employment in % terms over the same time period?

What I wrote at the time... Links to Chris's work, Lessig, et. al.:http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/doc/2011/05/1…

Also, if anyone owns a Congress Critter, consider loaning them to us temporarily!

Sascha, Thanks for the pointer to the Renesys blog. that shows the graph covers fraction of IP address space that is served by those curves.

on S-Curves

++++ to algo trading as a problem

I'm having myself replaced by an algorithm next week. Preemptory move.

Jerry, are you a trading algorithm now?

what's the answer worth to ya? (<--- see?)

no monetary value at all. Just curious (no trading value either).

"Multiples have compressed to nothing" <-- Steve, what are you saying here -- I want to get down with the lingo, yo.

AlGore was replaced by an AlGorithm long ago.

Judi Clark:

Kat Aaron (financial reporting rock star): http://newamerica.net/user/273

ted talk about algorithms http://www.ted.com/talks/kevin_slavin_how_…

Average share holding duration today - 27 seconds

This is part of that "deregulation" we hear about: new restrictive legislation

hmmm, so the three minute cards trump everything

in very liberal vermont, the legislature restricted the ability of the Vermont Telecommunications Authority to "compete" with the private sector. They were reacting to pressure from FairPoint and its unions because VTA plans GigE access on its stimulus-funded middlemile network for just a little more than FairPoint is leasing t-1s on its closed network. It's a dangerous under

sorry sascha my bad - "multiple" is "what people will pay for future growth" Mathematically it is the stock price divided by earnings (P/E ratio), sales, cash-flow, etc. per share. If you think a company is going to grow a lot, you are willing to pay a high multiple on current or next year's earnings (I am willing to pay a lot to buy a share in something that is going to grow a lot bigger). Likewise, if you think future earnings aren't going to grow much, you aren't going to pay much more than the current value of earnings.

then drive the knife in deep... er, I mean, then drive a hard bargain

-estimation to assume that the threat is only from the right

Tom E: Right, the CWA is killing us on this as well

Jerry, how about a three-minute card for backchannels?

a three-line card?

backchannel communications are non-rivalrous.

Sascha: Sure, but lurkers are free riders

unless, of course, we disagree w one another :)

(don't worry, Sasha, I know what you mean)

no, lurkers are crucial to this conversation. not free riding at all

they take turns in the middle when appropriate

If they take turns, they aren't lurking =)

I agree Jerry -- oh damn, I'm not lurking anymore.

Boom!

has the Internet gone beyond the point of its maximum openness and freedom? is it regression toward the mean of comms governance from now forward?

Chris S: request link to Boxer press release if you have it

Onion headline: "Governments Need to Run Everything, Government Study Says."

the operation of the Internet are the facts on the ground and they are ALL that matter (and a big thanks for sharing that letter)

why are our best journalsts at the Onion and the Daily Show?

Jerry: I think it depends on where you are. Isn't the degree of "openness and freedom" one experiences on the Internet directly related to from where one accesses it?

cuz those jobs are paying?

More on AT&T: In South Carolina we were able to defeat AT&T's anti-municipal bill this year only because AT&T defined "broadband" as 190 kbps in one direction! Even the SC legislators could understand that this was insane, particularly given the FCC's recent statement that anything less than 4 down/1 up is inadequate.

Once again, in SC we benefited from the stupidity of our opponents

can't always count on it

Actually that was my headline. I've just been schooled by The Onion.

In Cleveland a contest to be the next gigabit block

How big is a block?

Boxer press release: boxer.senate.gov/en/press/releases/090111.cfm

Why are so many facts "on the ground?" Did somebody drop them?

Sandy, OR, had a "Why Wait for Google Contest" to pick the neighborhood that would first get the city's new FTTH services.

Thanks: Boxer Urges T-Mobile, Sprint to Improve Customer Voicemail Security (link above)

Andrew: Homo sapiens has difficulty dealing with hard reality

"Homo sapiens has a hard time living with reality." Andrew O.

dealing, yes.

Andrew pre-published a paper to Big Hook mailing list on this topic.

Group illusions : from Martin's slides, social agreements define facts. Hmm.

did andrew just say something

it's such a cozy, welcoming Field, Andrew

I couldn't hear him

something was distorting my hearing

good illustration of multiples. apple's stock price has roughly doubled since late 2009 but the multiple (P/E ratio in this case) has fallen by more than half. So in retrospect, it made a lot of sense to pay a high multiple for Apple's stock back in 2010 because revenue and profit growth was very strong. However, the market today is not seeing the same revenue/profit growth in the future (hence the low multiple).

Elliot, don't worry, it was just reality. It will pass.

apple PE chart.chart

pollyanna.jpg

great article about this, The Black Swan of Cairo: http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/677…

re elliott

Better to make it inconvenient to access inconvenient information than impossible?

big.chart.png

have we talked about anti-fragility? :P

Steve K. I was serious about the Death of Demand book yesterday. Highly recommend.

Benoit: "I travel frequently"

LOL

Scott B: I do not like watermelon

Internet's Secret Back Door: http://www.slate.com/id/2265204/

I agree with Benoit, in Amsterdam we have so many kick off events of pilots which are perceived as real activity. It is just a matter of time until this bubble will burst too.

Public Funding and Fttx - http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb58…

@chris m: you're just jealous...

Carlien: This is a huge problem in the world of energy development, as well. And the public assumes that, because you can do something in a lab or pilot project, it's ready to go in the real world. It's frustrating as hell.

Jean R - have added 1st chapter to my kindle

Maggie K: sometimes it is really an achievement to actually have a pilot project. First priority seems to be a kick off event with wining and dining

the authorities in Jean R's hometown found out she didn't know who jesus was and decided to put her into foster care. so the placed her with her mother....

"My Mother? Let me tell you about my mother..." - Leon [Bladerunner]

amish-airlines-753901-…

Doc Searls: lol

Fayeteville, known locally as "Fayette Nam," pronounced "Fetvul."

calling in now doc, just a sec

I have no idea what that is.

Jean R: How is meaning made...

Hello? Did someone here order a pizza?

odd.

amishgiveup.jpg

the neighbor's cats ordered that pizza.

That explains the anchovies.

They keep insisting that if delivery comes here, we'll just toss it out and they'll get it

hasn't worked yet. Not sure where they got that idea. Stupid cats.

I've had trolls.

that is a thoughtful stalker

My guess is that she's paraphrasing, a lot.

;)

thrivable > sustainable

someone had asked about women in the workforce and impact on employment ratio. same source (brad delong's blog)

US employment to popul…

Thrivability: Bread yes, but roses too

reminds me of the famous strike: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bread_and_Roses

Jean: look to some of the language and practice of coaching. Find those bits that resonate with you, build from there?

Which reminds me of my favorite Emma Goldman quote: "If I can't dance, I don't want to be a part of your revolution."

an updated ting pricing doc, just to be current

Coaching is not the same field, but there's enough overlap that you may find a framework to work with

ting pricing.jpg

Judi - I am trained as an NLP coach.

not surprising

On property, Lewis Hyde in "Common as Air," rocks. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/22/books/re…

Bill Waddell's blog: Evolving Excellence

http://superfactory.typepad.com/ address for evolving excellence

that's the Economics of Lead Times post

Scott McCullough (whom some of us know) once described his role (for Jerry, in fact) in these "two words" ... "Phone Company Assassin."

Herman: Look for the sweet spot of balanced concentration/connectivity, latency is the enemy, and the underestimated power of a new narrative"

We got music, we got sunshine, who could ask for anything more

Herman: "I am building a cathedral, not working as a mason" great line.

Begin the Beguine

which means what, exactly? the title has always mystified me

Beguine is a dance form. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begin_the_Beguine

ah! gracias!

Por nada!

La biguine !

Walking on the Moon

Folks interested in other music of this style should check out Ernest Ranglin

Stephanie Brush says "Italian men are the only men in the world who think their pants fit. And they are correct."

fine print!

No destructive feeback required.

That felt good: http://runkeeper.com/user/msifry/activity/50394515

Smug.

Benoit's research: access granted!

global thermonuclear war :)

While you were running, Micah, we were eating delicious cookies and drinking beer. As a result, we can get the same rush out of a flight of stairs.

Benoit - pls put your email in the screen

ProjectVRM.org

https://cyber.law.harvard.edu/lists/info/projectvrm

Benoit's email: benoit@diffractionanalysis.com.

Green IT (Bill St. Arnaud)

You can get an idea of the reports published do far here: http://www.diffractionanalysis.com/publications

christopher@newrules.org for community networks news (stuff that I write about on MuniNetworks.org )

A prezzie on Diffraction Analysis' scope of research : http://www.diffractionanalysis.com/our-research

The ProjectVRM list: https://cyber.law.harvard.edu/lists/info/p…

Join that list if this revs your jets: http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/projectvrm

You can also get the techPresident Daily Digest by subscribing here: http://personaldemocracy.com/mailchimp/subscribe

From Jim Baller: To be added to our list, just send me an email (jim@baller.com).

I wish the nultys lived in my neighborhood

Fun fact/thought stemming from a conversation at the break. First. Check your "feelings" about the stock market right now. I am guessing most people "feel" like they have lost money. Then look at the chart of the S&P500 below (covers the last 2 years).

S&P500 chart.gif

would you send them a love letter?

sweet spot of where stuff is, but not stepping into denial.

Jean R: how to break through, not break down

Narrative narrative narrative!

We need good stories to tell and then good storytellers to tell them.

These are the year over year returns on the S&P500 for the month of august. in other words, if you had invested a dollar each day in august you would have made these returns YoY (august 31 return is 16.16%) 15.64% 13.67% 12.37% 9.85% 11.95% 8.90% 4.86% 4.45% 4.25% 9.28% 10.50% 11.60% 8.79% 7.63% -0.03% 3.97% -0.19% 6.53% 6.46% 12.48% 11.39% 16.82%

So how many people "feel" like they have made 16% on their investments since last year? not I for sure

Maggie: Changing history of technology (what the future might be like: utopia!)

Steve: maybe you hold on to your investments too long

paleo-future

What was the name of the blog ?

The New Optimism - there is such a thing?

Analysis Paralysis, anyone?

use of the word "utopia" in books from 1500 to 2008 http://ngrams.googlelabs.com/graph?content… note the peak just before 2000

@paleofuture as well. Matt Novak

Well, it is a new pragmatism... When we call it optimism, we turn the pessimists off, and we need their wisdom and experience from the past.

http://www.fractalsofchange.com sometimes about telecom or energy or Vermont or politics. sometimes just stories. always about change

Yeah Maggie. Thank you for your 3 min rant!

Chris M. (grin) I am a pretty good buyer. Not a great seller. I tended to sell too early on my prrofessional picks (although I got better at correcting that tendency). I am still learning how/when to judge sells in my personal account (when I was at Fidelity I could buy fairly easily but selling was tough so sort've a roach motel). So far I think I tend to hold too long vs just taking a good gain when you've got it.

optimism of the will, pessimism of the intellect

or, pessoptimism. but i agree maggie, we can't afford to be pessimistic or cynical

nothing great was ever accomplished without irrational exuberance

yes Micah, what do we call that?

Steve K: You got me beat, I can't bear to get involved aside from my 403b that I ignore aside from regular contributions.

Yeah, it's definitely pragmatic. But with a better attitude, maybe.

Did someone record that laser sound effect?

Harking back to Martin's issues with truth - I moved away from truth years ago - what I look for is "usefulness"

I think it was "pkphew!

Oh, that's great, Jean!

Very nice way of thinking about it.

I am not clear on what problem martin is solving for

it will help me understand the solution better

Yay! Martin illustrates why metaphors are evil !

Most interesting work I've seen related to Martin's idea is "Buffer Bloat". Jim Gettys has investigated and written about it

I think Martin was solving the problem of why the way we conceptualize the Internet leads us in the wrong direction for solving problems.

my computer doesn't seem to move much faster than the Tandy 1000 I started on... it does a lot more stuff, but it never sped up. As soon as it seemed faster, then programs devoured the speeds... Is that true for connectivity too?

chris M - that is the best investing strategy possible. I have most of my money in (or earmarked for) index funds at Vanguard... pure buy and hold. boring, but cheap.

yes, Jean. Applications always develop beyond the speed available

Steve: glad to hear it!

Elliot Noss - I'm wondering whether martin is solving the incumbent legacy problem i.e. how to sweat out the last drops of value from legacy copper...?

Jerry has the "Internet touch"

Ok, Benoit, you win.

Jerry: Internets = Ebola to the Telcos

I love Jerry

A lot.

Elliot, I think I can explain to you what the actual implementation would be of what Martin told

NTDRS: near term death rattle strategy - Jerry

Herman Wagter: great. I will ask martin as well :-)

per month traffic caps are seen as anti-ip video- ebola protection

Jerry : Hyper Internet Virus for telco's aka HIV

Merchants of Doubt

Jean, in a report I wrote recently (The Gigabit Race is on!) I illustrated the fact that one of the key reasons to launch gigabit today (as we wait for apps coming out of Lev's Labs) is that speed is addictive. As an illustration, I was recently in Nuenen in the Netherlands a got into a discussion with a guy in the street. I asked him if he was on fiber, he s

David Reed: "Merchants of Doubt"

Elliot, guy is in too

Public companies are stuck with the Quarterly profit burden; private companies are free to work for longer term

Guy

just saw a great current tv piece on kids and tobacco in indonesia

it is both

sorry. He said yes, then I asked him what he liked about it. He said 'it's fast'. I said 'What do you mean?' He said 'When I go to see my daughter 20 miles out, I can't use her broadband, it's so slow it drives me up the wall'.

and by the way no food is really bad

no pay tv, not so much

me too

WRT pay tv: why won't pay tv happen on the Internet?

Jim F: I'm confused, I typically think it it the opposite

Steve's saying this stat is the canary in the coalmine of a much broader economic disaster

Levi: "Comcast is not comparable to family cable outfits"

Postulate - Encryption is anti-entropic aka the bits want to be free therefore PayTV that relies on encryption to enforce payment is doomed

I hear you Benoit. With happiness, earning money doesn't have gains we might project out there. ... more speed can be the same - get me off the speed money rat race, please.

oooh, a game of distraction! ISPs as toll keepers? what about those damned bandwidth hogs!

Fully agree, Content Neutrality is as importnat

Sascha, can you see if Chair G will put ESPN3 on his list of things not to investigate?

6a00d8341bf71353ef0105…

Chris: I buy premium shows via iTunes. Sort of Pay TV. Sure, I could probably find them via BitTorrent I supposed

Jim F: I was responding to your previous comment about quarterly profit expectations

BitTorrent is enough of a pain in the ass to me that if you offer me a reasonably priced pay option, I'll often just pay for it

Those monopoly board items are utilities. Can the Net be a plain utility? If so, can it not be pipes?

ISPs forced to pay per-subscriber for any of their subscribers to get access to a website

Chris -- actually, we've requested that FCC investigate ESPN360, I believe Genachowski is already underway with his non-investigative prowess.

Doc, Martin says not pipes.

I think ESPN360 was rebranded ESPN3

Way to be on top of it!

does that mean it's 1/120th as useful?

I like it: Levi talking, hands up by Pepper, Tom, Steve

4

For the "pipes" conversation: http://publius.cc/2008/05/16/doc-searls-fr…

but the networks have little incentive to shift what they create and how they deliver it

Fox just recently delayed allowing streaming for some shows, saw piracy expand greatly: http://www.imdb.com/news/ni14461466/

So what I'm learning is that Comcast PTSD is nearly as bad as AT&T PTSD

we need other ways of getting the feed, which means new sources for the sports video for example. but wait, is that illegal?

Wendy: No, surprisingly

a sure way to drive users to the content on free, bootleg sites

Chris: Oh, sorry. Private companies can and do take longer term views. Talk to Steve K for a better explanation

which EVERY sports fan finds easily

I watched much of the Men and Women world cup via ESPN3

Yeah we wrote about this in, "DIGITAL FEUDALISM: ENCLOSURES AND ERASURES FROM DIGITAL RIGHTS MANAGEMENT TO THE DIGITAL DIVIDE" in CommLaw Conspectus: http://commlaw.cua.edu/res/docs/08-v19-2-M…

Elliot +

My article on ESPN360 and Boucher's comments: http://news.cnet.com/8301-13739_3-10043040-46.html

We talk about ESPN's model, NBC blocking free streams of the Olympics, etc.

To reduce confusion, ESPN360 was REBRANDED ESPN3 in April: http://www.espnmediazone3.com/us/2010/02/1…

Boucher: [This issue has] nothing to do with network neutrality debates, which focus on the practices of the broadband providers. What is in question, is the practice of a content provider, a website owner, in terms of how it chooses to make its content available ... I don't see it as a matter for policy makers to get involved in. I see it as a matter for private contracts, to be determined by content providers.

in the long run - and it may be too long - the content middlemen (Fox, ESPN,etc) will be the record labels who get bypassed by the talent or at least its owners - MLB.com today, NFL.com tomorrow, show producers etc.

If ESPN had market power, i would agree that there would be anti-trust issues. Companies that have market power have different market obligations. [However], this is one web site that is putting up sports content, competing with others. Even though ESPN is popular, I don't think [anti trust] applies. It might in TV broadcast, but certainly not on the Internet.

Christopher S: However, ESPN does lock up exclusive rights to a staggering amount of athletics. Surely that must translate into some market power

There are fundamental basic legal provisions in international copyright treaties giving distributors of content "extended" monopoly rights. Very hard to break legally, only if you are willing to force compulsory licensing including fees

some of this is direct consequence of copyright mechanics. and it'll get worse if we lose the first sale doctrine.

s/if/when/ :(

it'll take longer than we'd like... but it'll happen

The real change can only come if advertisers, who are the real power, redirect money to open access content on the Net.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Rogers_(executive)

which'll happen,Herman.

Chris M: That second paragraph was also a boucher quote. I think ESPN should be nailed by DOJ for what they are doing

ah

Tom, it will take some time, could be accelerated by a google type "AdContent" engine for content

Herman, good point

I think ESPN are actually merchants of doubt here

Presumably everyone here knows that ESPN is owned by ABC, owned by Mickey Mouse

on ESPN - if you accept (reasonable) gender stereotypes, ESPN is a HUGE inter-gender subsidy/tax regime. ESPN charges cable operators something like $4 per subscriber (if i remember right, probably wrong). That charge gets passed on to ALL subscribers. If you accept that a lot of women could care less about sports (or at least have a much lower desire to consume), then you have a huge nummber of single female and mother-with-children households paying $4 a month that subsidizes the sport-mad guys who have a much higher propensity to pay...

every time someone cuts the cord, a kitteh getz killd

Thinking more about what you said Herman, it's exactly what'll happen. The advertisers get better targeting by eliminating the middlemen and sponsoring with targeted ads.

Jerry, the kitteh doesn't get killd. He gets set free!

and you know about what happens when cats are free...

well, and also the execs are getting bazillions in pay packages

sometimes I look at some programming through a different lens and you can just see so much filler that would not survive other than in this historical business model

death and freedom - they often get confused...

you know, they had a revolution in Egypt even though a minority of the population had internet access

Judi, I was trying to Merch some Doubt :)

I have doubts. Does that count?

oh yeah. where d'you think they came from?

Doubts? oligopoly utility bills for one.

Micah: to what extent was the internet access helpful for the vanguard in Egypt?

Tom, some new business model emerges...:-)

chris m: being networked was incredibly helpful to organizers in egypt.

Another question for Micah: To what extent was the Egyptian revolution led and organized by that minority with Internet access?

Herman, shall we patent it? internationally?

cable company buying cooperatives?

Jim on NCTC - National Cable Television Coop - http://www.nctconline.org/

presently totally screwing Lafayette

There are other, smaller, less effective content buying coops

Maggie--we don't know exactly to what extent. Youth organizers definitely relied on it heavily. Labor organizers somewhat, though it was more useful for connecting outliers. The full story has yet to be told.

however the existence of a relatively uncontrolled networked public sphere allowed a democratic space to emerge over the last few years in egypt, which is where the leading organizing took place.

Lets get the TLD/URL...

NCTC -- item #473 on Genachowski's list of things not to do.

Facebook groups on human rights issues and labor solidarity mattered a lot.

I think we shouldn't underplay the effect of the INternet on keeping outsiders interested

This is the story about our complaint re cable tv and the internet http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte…

Levi's territory is all Cox'ed up

I have to wonder if the conversation on cable and content -- where I fully agree we want to break up the power of the big companies skips past some hard questions, like how all this media gets used...does it foster a more democratic culture if I can buy ESPN unbundled? or does it more efficiently get the circus show (and bread) to more people?

how AT&T got to be the biggest - http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/20…

Cool. I've just been wondering what a revolution like that looks like to somebody outside the elite, or outside the capital city. And I've been curious how much those people actively participated. (Although it definitely seems like they stand to benefit.)

http://www.freepress.net/files/TV-Nowhere.pdf the report itself. I argued for a compulsory copyright license, as Wendy would agree. And there is a long history of leveraging the content layer, as pepper said. Tim wu wrote a great paper on the issue. Jim septa wrote one the other side.

In a country where the protests are happening in a specific place, organized by people with access to a technology only a minority has access to, what's that mean?

under bighook rules any tv station you want http://wwitv.com/

Micah: I think of it as the more big companies dominate content in any fashion, the less all attention is available for media promoting a democratic culture. Like donuts placed in front of fruit - our brains are wired in specific ways that is unhelpful to what is best for us.

Micah - subsidised bread and circus were the two key control elements of the Roman Empire - fill the bellies of the masses and distract their minds :)

Lev: No POTS on campus for 6 years

Maggie, my point is that there may be enough access to networked communication when you don't have 100% access, for aggrieved groups to succeed. Also, and I hate to be a pessimist (see above) but you have to wonder if greater connectivity --> greater distraction

Lev: No cable service this year on campus, 55% of data is entertainment. Terrabit from youtube per day

and that is to a great extent driven by user experience not specific content

No, I think that's a good question, too. I think it could cut both ways int he same person

And the <100% =/= 0 is a good point

Economist has an article on the channelization of the Internet (about 4 weeks ago)

TV vs. Internet, in books: http://ngrams.googlelabs.com/graph?content…

Chris M--I agree. One unintended consequence of the internet wave is the unbundling of national attention. Would Bull Connor's firehosing of black teens have ignited as much outrage if we had today's media ecosystem?

Important point the relationship between more connectivity and more distraction - google is great at finding needles in haystacks, less good at finding straw

National attention is already unbundled. It got unbundled when the nbc/cbs/abc evening news stopped telling the middle what it was.

I haven't had a TV since 1997. SO my experience of it is very episodic (scrolling through channels at other people's houses or hotel rooms). Based on that, I do feel that the quality or programming (or the number of objectively crap channels) has declined markedly in the last few years. and I dont think that is just me getting older/grumpier.

Economist ref: http://www.economist.com/blogs/newsbook/20…

more BEER!

Hey Doc, what do you mean?

"telling it what it was"

BOAT RIDE!

Doc, yes, but add cable and then add internet and we are not talking 500 channels but a flood.

+1 Steve K

3-hour tour!

BOAT RIDE around the world!!\

right.

I haven't had TV in ages either. What is it again? Am I missing out?

The flood: http://www.theonion.com/articles/report-90…

Jean, try YouTube, it's like TV.

SteveK - u might like this - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyByBORmtH0

My son gets his lego building manuals from youtube, seems like a good thing

Jerry's TED Talk about to start - I hear Jean loves this guy

I am getting a TV though. why? I miss football. But will do it as over the air when/if I settle down somewhere.

We all love Jerry.

We are Jerry's Kids.

I do I do ... I love this guy. I met him here too!

+1 Beer... +1 more... and possibly a few additional +1s.

Jerry +∞

Atomic bomb explodes, yada yada yada ... INTERNET!

Why isn't this presentation on youtube?

This can be arranged.

Apparently Linus didn't know about OpenBSD, which was also open, so he did Linux

can you use a word other than "patently"?

has Jerry studied mime?

Micah Sifry: I liked when his arm turned into the Internet!

Some of it is online... see: http://therexpedition.com/ We can film some more of him and get it posted...

Micah: "I seem to be trapped in some kind of tube!"

everything Jerry touches turns into internet

it all comes back to ebola

which is simply an extension of his brain, before it gets organized

Jerry + Skynet = ?

Most people can't multitask but I'm pretty sure Jerry is multi-threaded with each limb operating independently

serious point, this is all in a very "head" space, but for anyone who loves the internet and its values, watch "The Internet is My Religion" a talk by Jim Gilliam at PdF this past year: http://www.theinternetismyreligion.com

Is Jerry standing on a conveyor belt?

I'm impressed by Jerry. Gimme slides and I can keep an audience engaged for an hour. But ad libbing like that is very very hard...

ready set go, who can find that picture

first! http://failblog.org/2009/07/24/hat-fail/

Jerry speaks in final draft. Enviable.

Goddess, yes, please tell me how to think like Jerry. I want to be able to synthesize and generate insight at that speed.

Jean: oh yes...

"lowerarchy" cool.

larry and sergey were both montessori kids

http://www.cantrip.org/gatto.html

That;s the six lesson schoolteacher. The lessons:

Calming streets can make snow plow drivers extremely irate...

submission to authority, provisional self-esteem, indifference, emotional dependency, that you can't hide, the unrleatedness of all things... More here: http://www.newciv.org/whole/schoolteacher.txt

"if you want to have better villagers, you have to design a village"

Many institutions are designed on mistrust...

Traffic calming? Eeeek! Next thing we will have the Government telling us where we can start and stop our vars!

cars...

vars would be bad too though

cf reducing agency problems by taking people out of the principal-agent relation

wars would be even more ... interesting

We are going to rediscover agency, as a first person power.

Doc S: Yeah for makers!

The principle of traffic calming is to restore the (visual) relationship between road users

marco!

STELLA!!! Thanks Steve

not confirmed - mclatchy papers Ousted Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi is fleeing south across the Sahara Desert, bound perhaps for the border with Niger, the military spokesman for the rebel National Transitional Council told McClatchy Newspapers on Thursday.

Big Shark in Cali... Watch your legs surfers.

The Nearness of You

the shark pic is prety f**ng crazy

USA today headline (not "the onion") - "Obama speech won't conflict with football"

Oh, thank god.

phew

we might as well just hand the whole nation over to recievership

FREE BIRD!

lol

from a review.....

"In what is now a bit of a weird occurrence Thursday evening, Vignola told the crowd that it was Vinny Raniolo’s birthday and asked us to sing a quick happy birthday to him. However, in looking up Raniolo’s last name after the show, I found that Raniolo had already celebrated his birthday at a September 25 show in Baltimore"

oooh - we been PLAYED

she looks like a hockey player.....which of course works for me!

Excellent!

not a lot of people in this world who somehow become more alluring with fewer teeth...

Go Leafs!

you are not canadian steve

I know people who knock them out to fit in

Elliot: sounds like a potential business opportunity

Leafs?

Of the Maple variety, I presume

Judi Clark: itis a toronto hockey reference

Ah. I prefer the maple variety of syrup to hockey, personally.

which is not very popular in hawaii

great TEDx talk about entering the world as a scientist and having that world view shifted. and about vulnerability: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4Qm9cGRub0

probably the opposite of watching a Leafs game :)

oh you don't live near me. I have real maple syrup at my house. No hockey tho. That ice? We grind it then flavor it. Mmm.

do I have the right Orange? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_the_Silent

it is he

(natural) maple syrup on vanilla ice cream. HEAVEN

I hope everyone here has already enjoyed this video from the UK about a broken blackberry... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAG39jKi0lI… (requires sound)

japan has not collapsed

nor was it ever the same type of economic rival that china is just on the sheer numbers

Is there any likelihood of the global financial system collapsing? Seems pretty viral at the moment.

in china the top students every year go into government. in the US (canada too of course) become bankers and lawyers

Elliot: I thought Japan lost a decade... are you suggesting they may yet find it?

China has experienced the largest scale mass migration in the history of humanity - compressed into the last 20 years

Steve: "China is one big corporation."

@chris it was in my basement

This an amazing perspective on China

China: It's totally like Avon

some basement

Judi: China is like Avon.

but without the cosmetics

China also has to contend with North Korea - I hear they are run by a God

Does that make us Amway?

thinking ponzi-like

lol

ChrisM - the son of God

I think it does.

@chris but seriously, it just didn't grow. japan still has a huge economy and an awesome Internet. the have one big problem which is demographics (an aging population)

It seems like China has an even bigger demographics problem, just not as advanced if that makes sense

If this is true (and I suspect it is -- that Corporate China makes Corporate America look like a Marx Brothers movie), then ... well, that changes things. Not sure how, but... wow.

China has a lot of 3rd world growth to deal with

Some great new slapstick movies at least.

bringing 100m people into the middle class is no mean feat

the Marxist Brothers?

Anyone catch anything coming out of Chollywood?

one thought: the default language on the Internet isn't going to be english for long

bubble in real estate, yes. loads of waste yes. HUGE value creation, yes

Guy J: lol

English is a minority language on the Net already, no?

Chollywood: http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archiv…

Guy J -> Son of God's son, soon?

The CPC is the world's largest political party,[11] claiming over 80 million members[12] at the end of 2010 which constitutes about 6.0% of the total population of mainland China.

ChrisM - almost sounds like a royal family dynasty huh?

they filter it pretty hard

Guy: Good gig if you can get it

China's Twitter is called Weibo - about 140m users if you believe their press release

http://www.blogherald.com/2011/08/23/weibo…

Do China's universities attract people from all over the world to study? If not, is language the barrier?

China's Facebook is RenRen - claimed 60m users then scaled it down later

both services do strong content and user filtering, based on pattern recognition

Remember the 1 child per family policy has a mega unintended consequence...

China's economic growth numbers are at least half as bunk as our unemployment rate.

Lots of single males

historically that means war

as a means of projecting internal societal stresses outwards

hopefully not...

I always get suspicious if people say that something is a hard fact

Guy: I vote no

&... proxy services are accessible in-country; plenty of friends on the mainland able to access Twitter and FB and other places without much trouble

Cancer now the leading cause of death in China: http://www.grist.org/pollution/2011-05-25-…

as someone (Jerry) said earlier today in this chat, by definition leadership is hindered by bad information

and a couple trillion dollar cushion to play with

which helps

August 2011 -- Taobao, China’s biggest e-commerce platforms, is banning the sale of Virtual Private Networks (VPNs) and IP proxies on its popular C2C shopping site. http://www.penn-olson.com/2011/08/20/taoba…

Elliot - my sense is the control of rare earth resources is way more significant thatn $$$

the case with the train accident and microblogs, which swarmed over the official attempts to suppress negative information, is really interesting http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/29/world/as…

now THERE's an unintended consequence

the aftereffects of the one-child policy

Can China solve its demographic problem by expecting massive immigration in that 10-15 time frame?

how many hundred million people can retire on $250b?

How is that different than us?

US has a Representative Democracy and we HATES our Gov. China got dictatorship and love it to death

No, we hates our government amongst ourselves

When Europeans criticize us, we create "freedom fries"

ChrisM - dunno about "love" - relative to the Great Leap forwards and Cultural revolution most folks are just busy getting on with improving their families material position

Maggie: I don't see US Nationals enacting US policy goals by hacking foreign govs - but I may be missing it

is there a country where people actually like their government?

Carlien: North Korea, from what I read...

Syria is popular according to official reports

BigHook is full of definitive speculation.

Micah Sifry: you are so right. sorry

picture it: 1.4 Billion Dittoheads

elliot n violates backchannel protocol by making joke in public

let's speculate well together. it's fun

or speculative definitions Sascha

hu limbaugh

FWIW - I roadtested the "china as a corporation" pitch with a LOT of chinese and ex-pats on an extended trip to beijing and shanghai in the fall. I got nuanced additions and illuminations, but universal "yup, that is pretty well how it works" feedback.

Micah Sifry: but it needed sound or it wouldn't have been funny

it was for a good cause

you played your card

what is the hokey-pokey is "what it's all about"?

I'm more worried about US collapsing than I am about China doing anything to us.

I haven't been to China recently, but I like Chinese food -- when can I speak?

Perhaps collapsing is way too dire.

Sascha Meinrath: you will want to speak again in an hour

Sascha - anytime so long as your mouth isn't full

I have a lot of chinese stuff in my house, does that count too?

I was in Hong Kong in 1991. That's it. I know shit. So this is all very interesting to me.

I have a Lenovo thinkpad

I've got a Chinese laptop

Carlien R: yes! well, it depends upon what kind of stuff. can you post a picture of some?

Wendy ROFL

New Meme!

backchannel "Head explodes"

We all have Chinese laptops.

#ChineseStuffInMyHouse

when ICANN met in china last they insisted on an open Internet and got it

let's remove from this room everything that was made in China

My neighbor owns a chow

Sascha wins the thread

Did anyone stay in a Holiday Inn last night?

Well played Steve

Elliot Noss:

Elliot was made in China, too??

Carlien R: yes?

Elliot Noss: I've got stuff and stuff, live in amsterdam remember?

Cool thing about China is thriving super-geek DIY culture.

Carlien R: I was thinking maybe you had some in pictures from home that you could share. if not, do you have a drawing program? wait, I will post some and you say if they are close

Illegal shmillegal, what is a little wiretapping?

What's going to disrupt Chinese panopticon is going to be cool DIY solutions.

31740-frosted-dragon-s…

like that?

'ats a nice dragon

like that carlien?

Elliot Noss: yes something like that and a vase too of course ;)

Hmm but if cisco did do secret mods it couldn't admit it!!!

why would huawei steal cisco IP and then use CISCO routers to spy on people

Only Cheney allowed to trade with many of our enemies

man nortel should get back into things

Pepper -- would be interested in your take on conspiracy theorists over at Wall Street Journal & "Cisco Poised to Help China Keep an Eye on Its Citizens": http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405…

Tell Cisco: Stop helping China abuse human rights! (via EFF) https://secure.eff.org/site/Advocacy?cmd=d…

he thinks he was knowledgable

On TOM-Skype's backdoor: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/02/technolo…

i know a guy

who knows a guy

whose uncle's brother

it's a different guy

trust me

wow, that was good.

And that guy really likes chinese food

there are a lot of chinese guys btw

inconvenient truth: one reason that Ericsson did so well for so many years was exactly because they were a non-aligned nation. so you had confidence that the US would not be listening into your traffic. most interesting is how strong Ericsson was in south america for that reason.

My big take-away from this is Steve's "It's a big corporation" line. Even if it's not exactly right, it makes sense of many things. A useful metaphor. And all metaphors are wrong, btw. Or they wouldn't be metaphors.

СВАКС... Когда вы забатите довольно воровать настоящий лучший

Guy: you've been rooted

thank you doc - felt that had got lost in here somewhere

everyone, trash your thumb drives!

Same reason people were buying crypto equipment from the Swiss firm Crypto-AG (used by many middle eastern countries)...until it was revealed that NSA had backdoors in the Crypto-AG gear. See: http://cryptome.org/jya/nsa-sun.htm

No, it totally stands out. Perfectly framed things for me. Again, a frame isn't a picture. But it's a frame, and that helps a lot.

or thumb through your trash cans!

on US debt

Steve: I agree with Doc, I think you should explain it less and let it stand

ChinaBOF tomorrow for those into it?

here is what google thinks guy said: "SVAKS ... When you steal this zabatite rather better"

Roxanne is our Prophet in Residence.

That thumb drive story is total crap. Google got owned by the Chinese via a windows email exploit sent to someone in their legal team

i understand that, elliott, don't you?

The take home lesson for Google was don't let their employees, even the non-technical ones, use Windows/Outlook

I thought she was our Profit in Residence... or is that SteveK?

WE CAN BORROW AT NEGATIVE INTEREST RATES. WHY IN GODS NAME ARENT WE BORROWING EVERY DIME WE CAN GET FROM THE CHINESE WHO WILL PAY US TO BORROW IT AND USE IT TO REBUILD OUR BRIDGES.

Steve is our Profit in Residence.

good question, steve

Steve: or at least fix our caps lock keys, am I right?

life expectancy = 73.5 years

Steve -- we could borrow money and then fly to China.

because there's a strong political cult in the US that now imagines that all debt is bad

Micah: when my household goes into debt, we sell the car immediately... forgetting that we needed it get to work...

Headline: "Canada Buys U.S. From China."

Building bridges? If only there was something relevant to telecom we could invest in....

seeing negative interest rates as a positive is a neat trick, but man it scares the shit out of me

Levi: my new favorite person

I get that we are tired and had a few drinks, but as someone who can't smoke pot... this is sounding like the crazy conversations I hear when other people smoke and forget their critical thinking skills...

and we were trying to be mindful about being in denial - tell me how this is going to be important to what WE are facing?

Jean +1

That is China's One IP address policy

music, the universal language

yes, great day - definitely

Chris S: They are totally cracking down on NAT?

Who is going to hang out?

in no hurry

Judi, would you be interested in some of the pix I shot today, for the roll you show in the morning?

YES

Please and thank you!