we're about to kick off day two. Choro das 3 is tuning up

happy music, even tho' choro means crying :)

good morning

anybody have questions about logging into the Chat?

If so, see Simon

David, don't forget the table topics

It is on my list Jer

be. here. now.

and steal this book

being here is now an approved activity!

I don't like to engage in approved activities, Elliot

watching paul ryan last night scared me deeply

It would be good if Ryan were simply wrong. But he was wrong and lied, over and over and over.Delusion? Malice aforeskin? Whatever it was, it was ugly.

apparently, Polish people can offer free wireless access...

thru Pole attachments

<groan> too early Jerry

bing

fewer people named Jones in other countries?

Would the fact that the Russians have more FttH connections (in absolute numbers) than the USS help?

USA

more music!

Herman Wagter: what state is Russia in?

topic possibility: futures we see coming, good and bad, analyzed for the future we want?

Elliot, the FttH rollout is fast and continuing, partly because of the power of mob-like enterprises. Absolute numbers exceed FttH in USA (Verizon, AT&T plus rest, not including HFC)

ummm mob-like?

does that mean what I think it does?

yep

love that: electricity was initially treated as a luxury good

now the disparity is between middle-class koreans or japanese women and rich kids in nyc who have to deal with crappy, low throughput, asymmetrical bandwidth!

(and I said women because of susan's "toting irons" story)

a good book on the electrification of America: http://www.amazon.com/Electrifying-America…

http://bit.ly/RueTXR Time Warner will invest $25 million to expand its NYC fiber network (Found via http://rt.ly/#q=fiber btw)

Woo!

The Wall Street Journal original on the Time Warner story: http://on.wsj.com/UdEgga

DOCSIS 3 is the fast one, actually http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DOCSIS

how have the costs of installing fiber gone up, though? I get that the competitive difference isn't as sharp, but does the install cost more?

The cost of fiber install is going down, slowly through experience. Most HFC installations are already done, and the first step is relatively cheap

that's my intuition, too

what about state laws blocking muni nets?

Killer Apps: "Cloud", Gaming, Video Conferencing, Downloaded video, software updates.

"homes with tails"

State Law -- 18 states make it harder for munis

"harder" - like 'just say no'

so... let's find some econometric grad students and ask them to do this as their thesis/etc

driver: possible appreciation of homes with tails, if recognized by banks or market

One avoided Emergency Room $1280. Cost per home, $640. Immediate feel of connectedness, priceless.

driver: health care costs foregone. emergency interventions improved or avoided thru broadband

Why not deploy 2 fibers to the home, one reserved for Telehealth and paid for by insurance coampnies? 2 fibers is a few % more expensiev than one

with the bandwidth fiber can support there is no justification for >1 fiber

seperate fiber, becuas you do not have the compication of an operator inbetween, with alle billing and other arrangements that interfere

sorry for the typos

building special purpose nets seems like a big step backward

Sam Insole? focussed on interconnecting networks

(dpr)

The transactional costs are huge

Unless there would be a true utility for connectivity

Insull

Samuel Insull

For individuals, photos and videos (but photos especially) are the most valued personal data. From http://bit.ly/RuhXTM: "The thing I cared most about, above all else, was my photo library. And there, in a folder full of JPGs, was photo after photo after photo that I had feared were gone forever. Subfolders were organized by the year, month and day files were created. I went immediately to the folder that bore the date my daughter was born. They were there. Everything was there. We were floored. I nearly cried."

there is no where in the US anywhere near the best in europe, which covers huge swaths of europe (netherlands, france, many more large pop centers)

Doc Searls:

Doc Searls: ++1

Does the word Insulation derive from Samuel Insull?

but they are doing it better and enjoying it more

A practical use at home (100/100 Mbps): one synology NAS, reserved for photo/video backup by friends. And I backup to the same thing at home with another friend. Cheap and safe DIY cloud

Here's a history of electrification from a municipal perspective, including the role of Sam Insull. http://www.baller.com/library-art-history.html

Does somebody with a Tbyte disk use their computer differently than somebody w a 100Gbyte disk?

there's no market for products which require gigabit because no one has gigabit access

thanks for that pointer, Jim. very cool

More... Among VRM developers < http://bit.ly/KNZE40>; of personal data stores, lockers, vaults, clouds, etc. (all different names for the same thing) there is a growing realization that what matters most, and is most personal, is not "social" or even health or financial data. It's photos.

the difference in consumption between uploading 5 min of video to youtube over 10mb or over a gig = 0. the difference in experience and time = LOTS! there is no difference in a phone call over an old operator-assisted call vs. dialling a push-button phone or hitting a contact on an iphone = 0 in terms of bits or "did it work", but the experience is so much better.

One point: For consumers, beyond a certain basic speed, price is a larger factor than performance. One argument for fiber is that operating expense can be lower than copper, so with a long view, it could be a cheaper product than coax or twisted pair.

Davidi, Yes... I have a 1.5 TB disk, and it is a mobile media vault that I access frequently whether I'm online or offline.

We're I to have access to a Gig link, I'm confident that I would put it to use

Were

Report by NRRI?

Dane: actual prices in NL : 17 dollar per mont rent (wholesale) per point-to-point fiber access line from a POP to a home. Results in tripe play prices of 50 euro incl Tax per month, up to 70 euro for 100/100 Mbps + HDTV + voice

Herman Wagter: how does this compare to UNE-L copper there?

UNE-L copper is approximately 8-9 dollars, last time I checked

17 dollars would drop to 12-13 with penetration over 50 %

Is it this: http://nrri.org/pubs/telecommunications/NR…

Here's a carrot: How much is your town's total monthly telecom+Internet bill? How many months would it take to pay for a muni net?

Competitive Issues in Special Access Markets

To Dane's point: price is huge. So is convenience. UI. My wife never texted before there was an iPhone. Now she schools me on how to use my iPhone, and for much more than texting. The iPhone was an invention that mothered necessity. We need something, or some things, that people see and say "I gotta have that!" Right now we don't, for anything Susan is calling for. I think Google in KC, Chatanooga and other places are hoping that some local need will be invented that can then be generalized. We'll see, I guess.Meanwhile, things like offsite backup, and even something as relatively simple as Dropbox, are beyond the desire or understanding of muggles.

David: OneCommunity, http://www.onecommunity.org offers a model for aggregating, city, health, education, museums and libraries. As a non-profit, OneCommunity has connected 2500 facilities in 24 counties with 10G+ connectivity.

cheap 50G? tell me more...

Doc, Dane: The B to C business model can not work today absent a portfolio of services which requires additional B to B connectivity Health and/or Safety and/or Education and/or ... A health care provider or reimbursement payer to subsidize the monthly is viable. To avoid 'over build', there is value to Sonic and others looking to serve or support other to serve as intermediaries for B to B and then B to C...

hi Judi!

Hi Jerry

Broadband without Internet ain't worth squat

it's the internet stupid...

+1 Lev. The current operators do not care at all to develop wholesale services that allows energy companioes or health providers to do their thing effectively

I would just do it and ask for forgiveness!

nice!

didn't know that the % a neighborhood has to hit varies w cost of deployment, which varies with economic status

and that makes it easy for community organizers to be effective as well! I can see @Isaac being quite good at that :-)

all w Google Fiber

Maybe I'm mis-grokking what some of ya'll are saying, but to me, at least, the Internet is neither B to C nor B to B, except at the current business model level. I think there is risk in confining consideration to the possible at that level. Arguing that B to B is required before anything-to-C, or c-to-C, is like arguing that the mainframe or minicomputer business required maturity before we could have PCs.

Not suggesting that the Internet is B to C or B to B but rather that next generation applications will follow all previous maturity models and the only thing to try and avoid is overbuild and to try and accelerate the development and deployment of next generation applications.

Got it, Lev. Thanks.

We are assuming the Internet is more transformative than it really is -- see my book review of "Misunderstanding The Internet" at http://jip.vmhost.psu.edu/ojs/index.php/ji…

curious: Internet of Things suggests that Internet is increasingly M to M, no?

or Device to device?

Automation trends are shifting the natural job profiles to small businesses. 3D printing technology is enhancing that shift. But if high bw connections only go to the larger businesses, we will be suppressing those trends - and risking higher unemployment as a result.

The problems we see of broadband economics are a result of running a single-service network (or series of monoservice overlays) which force all traffic to bear the cost structure of the most quality-demanding flows

Since my publisher only gave me 10 books to give away here, I've put a .pdf of the relevant part of my book (Part III: The Networked Marketplace) up temporarily here: http://searls.com/doc/p3/

The "killer app" is always people talking to each other. But without fibre I can't do simple gestures like pushing a document across the virtual table without a long conversation pause

again on jobs I repost this link http://edgeperspectives.typepad.com/edge_p…

it really is a must read

+1 Martin. ten years ago older people told me that the ability to play bridge (card game)socially over the Internet would be the killer...we are still far from that

Martin, I would encourage you to consider using your three minutes (easy for me to say) to say more about software defined networks or whatever it is that you believe represents the way forward beyond mono-services.

socially would require tremendous video/3D facilities

Race Against the Machine at Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0984725113/ Locals, too. Both authors are at MIT. One is a former Berkmanian as well.

Our musicians will never be able to jam together over the Internet. Sign language is problematic over the Internet. It isn't fit for a wide array of purposes.

um, Martin, there have been many musical collaborations over the net

Roxanne points out technology is driving automation (fewer jobs) and reduced costs of resources (low inflation) but our institutions assume resources are fixed and must be allocated. Quoting E. O. Wilson, (~) "Space age technology, medieval institutions."

yes, and real-time is the problem

I'll save my 3 minute card until nearer the end; won't disturb proceedings with alien networking ideas!

Uncompressed 4K video interaction (available today) at 72 fps from NHK. A single two-way symmetrical experience for health, dance, music, or visualized data is 200 Gigabits per sec. That is 200 Gigabits per second (32 million pixels).

music

at last! the Great American Novel's title is We're All Fucked

we're all fucked: canadian version! next

the Canadian version will be titled We're All Fricked :)

what's the name of the law or initiative under which this is happening to MI?

where's the best summary of this situation now online?

Emergency Manager PA4?

We're all fucked, or just the states that were anyway?

On the other hand: http://detroitdjc.org/

Re: Dwayne's Detroit See a fabulous art installation on Detroit Dissembled. http://www.mlive.com/entertainment/grand-r…

communities (even Detroit) can take control of their digital future.

if enough of them 1) knew how to read, 2) felt collectively or personally empowered enough.

My fave http://photos.mlive.com/grandrapidspress/2…

when I see comparisons betn the US and China, I'm surprised at how shocked people are by the #s. We're the rounding error on their population! geeeez

And one more Detroit image http://photos.mlive.com/grandrapidspress/2…

Jerry, we feel much more important than a rounding error in the US

Difference of approach: Humanity vs Nation-states

I am presenting at the ITU Leadership Summit in Dubai on 14th October; invite-only event for heads of telcos, etc. Am working out what I want to say still.

the plot thickens. the Great American Novel is getting richer and richer

ITU comes from a world where network "success modes" were limited, but "failure modes" well-managed; Internet is the opposite. Interesting middle space of how data transport quantity and quality are traded across borders.

Internet model largely rejects the legitimacy of policy in networks; however, the built reality is the Internet is riddled with policy. The internet is indeed a "network of networks" and not an inter-net, which leaves no explicit room for policy engines at network borders. Should we be insisting that our porn sites are available to all regardless of cultural preferences? Issues are not black and white "IETF good, ITU bad".

this is the central point

I have played a 3-minute card on this at least once

maybe twice

and I feel my fingers getting twitchy again

and yes these folks are doing gods work

wouldn't this legitimize and arm many takeover/takedown efforts by Govts and incumbents?

it will be a mexican standoff but the retro forces will lose

they always do

that have every time

I highly endorse an Elliot 3-minute Cdn-style rant on this one...

Both the ITU and Internet models have problems; ITU wants to drag Internet towards the connection-oriented model to perpetuate corrupt termination & settlement regimes. But Internet is equally weak as being a ubiquitous data transport for society as its non-deterministic failure modes make it unsuitable for society-critical applications. So there's been a 30+ year stand-off between circuit and packet models. There is no resolution within the framing of all-or-nothing approach to quality.

The money flows are getting more complex with tons of session border controllers and private overlays and CDNs. The end-to-end model is an idealisation not reflected in the built reality.

Bandwidth is the wrong measure for voice; it is quality-demanding and may require you to leave much "bandwidth" fallow to keep loss/delay within acceptable bounds

I am going to bring my rebuttals here

it works for youtube

Wouldn't all this hurt the developing countries foremost?

mit opencourseware can cache EASILY

and chat and text

the ones that "will be cut off" are essentially cut off now

I wrote this in february http://tucowsinc.com/news/2012/02/the-inte…

http://www.etno.eu/Default.aspx?tabid=2506 policy statememt

The PSTN's billing system has a vital function: to EXCLUDE traffic that doesn't offer sufficient value. The Internet model slowly moving towards rejecting traffic closer and closer to ingress (AQM, RED, ECN etc) - but still rewards the greediest applications in grabbing the fixed and finite resource.

I, for one, welcome our new ITU masters

<kidding!>

if you ran a server on your laptop, would you become an Operating Agency?

The ITU's solutions are wrong, but the issues are real: how to develop infrastructure in less-developed regions; transparency in buying and selling cross-border datacoms

International Broadband Study from Google: http://policybythenumbers.blogspot.com/201…

Martin Geddes: telecom borders are complete artifice. the is only an "issue" if you want to perpetuate an anachronism

Martin: Another call for your 3 minute card re: developing infrastructure in less developed regions...

We seem to be faced with two network governance models: (1) "Consensus of the Corporatocracy" or (2) "Dictatorship of the Non-Democracies". Neither is particularly attractive.

yes! nation states hate the Internet. all of them

what took the cybersecurity angle so long to show up here?

Power elites exist. States exist. Armies and force exist. Borders are the places where different power elites abut each other. They're not going away any time soon. My inner anarcho-libertarian wishes it were otherwise, but the Internet's claim to be the champion of development is suspect. It was telephony and SMS that democratised comms, not IP, because it made it worth someone's while building infrastructure in places where civil society wasn't up to the job.

This seems to be a battle between Corporate Rule and Governmental Rule.

if that turns Steve into an outlaw, he could hide out at the Airplane House

I like Elliot's disaster scenario

What if the Internet model didn't work; what if you've got nobody left to turn to when it "works like sh*t" and you need "sh*t that works"?

today

it'll be the Zinternet (zomg!)

what happened to FreedomBox and promises like them?

Telcos should be in the business of containing failure modes of large distributed systems on which society depends. The Internet's joy is allowing experimentation with new success modes.

love David's point now. the legacy systems were built based on mistrust. the internet was built assuming trust, then dealing w bad actors

I think it is "who you trust" not "mistrust"

this is a perspective I'm seeing in every sector of society

change is scary

always

The underlying assumptions of cybernetics of most every variety is/was/will be premised on the idea that the more we are connected the more we know and the more we know about each other the more we will 'like' each other. The notion that the more we are connected the more we will 'hate' each other while foreign to the original generation is very real across all kinds of boundaries (both national and other identity boundaries).

Judi: FreedomBox is still evolving... though I hired away their director to run OTI's Open Internet Tools Project. ;)

Sascha, how about integrating development of FreedomBox as part of OITP?

Judi: The FreedomBox idea has come a long, long way, though not under the auspices of the FreedomBox Foundation. Look at Project Byzatium: http://project-byzantium.org/

not exactly, the same, but most of the core ideas are there

sweet, thanks for the pointer.

don't forget TPP!

from Hunchback, the chapter This Will Kill That: http://www.bartleby.com/312/0502.html

"business" is WAY too general a term

even "big business" is

I am a proto crypto anarchist

We'd be better off taking Isaac's work and overlaying network architectures like RINA (instead of IP) and thinking through new ways of building voluntary-cooperative mechanisms for policy. For example, we could be building a connectivity commons using scavenger-class traffic, and having new rules of reciprocity of access.

The current Internet has boundaries to its usefulness. All three legs -- static routing; dynamic flows; policy overlay -- can be done much better.

The IETF is an amplifier for power of a different set of stakeholders to the ITU, with a different set of filters to participation.

there is only one real multi-stakeholder institution, ICANN

I wish there were more

Martin: What is RINA?

I can't find it through a simple search.

"Consensus" can be a particularly tyrannical form of power; am glad to see we still have competition between governance models, as there is never one true model

http://csr.bu.edu/rina/papers.html RINA

RINA described at http://tnc2011.terena.org/getfile/818

this, I take it: http://csr.bu.edu/rina/about.html

great

The TCP/IP model layers horizontally, whereas the world is naturally vertical, fractal and recursive.

If you want to warp your mind about networking a bit more, read http://www.pnsol.com/public/tech-reports/i…

Is there a BS-pedia?

Where falsehoods are decinstructed/

deconstructed?

Elvis sang, "Fools rush in where wise men fear to go."

First source: Alexander Pope: b

From Bloomberg (via Baller's list): “Average Household Has 5 Connected Devices, While Some Have 15-Plus” http://go.bloomberg.com/tech-blog/2012-08-… - perhaps some of them need to include mesh networking?

Like Pepper I also had a conversation with FiOS tech support, in which they helped my identify 9 devices on our network. I thought the number was low.

isoc's coverage - http://www.internetsociety.org/wcit

anyone want to go look at the pottery?

well, buy some of the pottery?

@Elliot sure!

Irony of ITU vs IETF models is both are based on rationing a fixed-quality resource; fighting over the wrong assumptions.

ok, time to start up again

resend - ISOC WCIT info - http://www.internetsociety.org/wcit

question for everyone, about Choro das 3: would you like to help them have a better presence on the Interwebz?

I'm recruiting ppl for a short conversation w them today or tomorrow to help

Jerry Michalski: happy to help with a domain name. and we do .br!

you must enjoy being able to say "we do Brazil." thank ye!

They're here now, or when the site comes up... http://www.chorodas3.com.br/

The funny thing about the Target story is that the math to figure out if someone is pregnant from purchasing habits is trivial

it was the idea that you should look for pregnant customers that was the interesting bit

"we see you're about to go on a shooting rampage. would you like more ammo, or body armor?"

ChoroDas3.bz is available now for $20 on Hover.

Hilary: how trivial? I mean, assuming they aren't buying pre-natal vitamins, we're talking about a correlational analysis.

why would you assume that?

which way was that? people will pay more to get privacy? than they will to undo privacy?

if you take the set of people who DO buy pre-natal vitamins (or very distinguishing products) and use that to understand which product patterns correlate, you can extrapolate to a larger population...

does campfire support LaTeX?

I think it's the other way around, a sort of loss aversion: ppl will pay more to keep privacy they think they have than they'll pay to get some new privacy

:)

Elliot http://www.slideshare.net/kwolff/andy-hine…

Yes, but then you run into an ecological fallacy problem.

Jerry +1

Now I'm contemplating what an exploratory/confirmatory factor analysis would look like for ID-ing pregnancy empirically from Target buying habits.

Seven types of data: Service, Disclosed( e.g. here), Trusted (comments on another page), Incidental (data about you), transaction, behavioral, derived.

If privacy isn't dead, is it a zombie?

its a cyborg now

No I disagree. I think kids have their privacy, but maintain it in ways we don't know about.

Hiding in plain sight?

My teenage kid and his friends do fun falsification of themselves and their relationships on facebook.

I think privacy is the wrong label for this discussion, but I'm not sure what should replace it... it's more about how loud the data is

"Data is the pollution of the information society."

@doc if you mean things like "married to" and "related to" ya that is pretty prevalent

Privacy is hardly an issue offline, because offline is civilized. And because the tech is worked out. We solve privacy with clothing, walls and doors. The Net we know was born just 17 years ago. It's still in high school. It's early.

it is always that younger generation that is crazy

and reckless

My 15-year-old kid video-skypes with a friend while they send absurd Gmails to each other just to see what kinds of strange ads come up.

remember how in the 1960s they said "don't trust anyone over 30"? what if in 30 years the norm is "don't trust anyone who doesn't have compromising photos online" or "don't trust anyone who isn't completely transparent online"? (two different scenarios)

@Doc I don't think it's more civilized, you just have less power here. :)

Or "don't trust anyone who doesn't understand what and how to publish online

"Report: Every Potential 2040 President Already Unelectable Due To Facebook" http://www.theonion.com/video/report-every… (warning: it's a video)

as President Malika Obama said in her youth, "I p0wn you, sucka!"

This brings up class and privacy.

In my social circle you get ostracized if you place a photo of a fun party on Facebook

Not all trades are perceived as trades. Most people don't know they've traded anything in exchange for having a browser full of tracking cookies and beacons.

Facebook is like a very gentle interrogation.

VC funding dramatically changes those companies' agenda

The east German Stasi would haven been great admirers of the efficiency

they suddenly owe 20x returns to someone else, who has them by the short hairs

Kevin Kelly: "The Internet is a copy machine." http://www.kk.org/thetechnium/archives/200…

Very good. "Who owns the data" means that data can be owned by an entity.

The right to be forgotten

so do we need to raise the cost of keeping data dramatically?

herman: in europe, or at least in france, isn't there a 6 month window on holding individual's data?

you can't do that without inhibiting innovation

The Internet is a Series of Tubes!

the Internet Is a Great Tool for Totalitarians

for car apps & generated data: i've been preaching that car owners, who are creating that content, own it. NOT the car companies, not the state (tax collector)

On the abdication of legal system -- maybe an aside about the Third Party Doctrine and transaction data

Robin C. Yes there is a legal window

Depending on country, 6 months or 12 months

solution: we've now "fixed" the transparency of our exit node so NBC can't surveille.

"we're allowed to screw you in any way we can imagine... and we reserve the right to change these rules if we think up a groovy one later"

well isn't that an important part of the solution? companies can't hold my data forever, only for 6 months

I'm afraid privacy is not an important issue to the average person until you get a Pinochet or Ahmedinejad or Stalin

then it's suddenly really important. and too late

Jerry +1

What about when people start getting speeding tickets from drones

they already get speeding tickets from automated crosslight systems...

And they hate that

I'm just stunned that NBC is monitoring Tor exit nodes so closely.

should we create a Diaspora hub for Bighookers to play some of this out?

Where is there any data that indicates that people are in fact aware that their privacy is being eroded and that they can't do anything about it? I bet it doesn't exist.

for the Tor-dull: what's an exit node?

did the big and awesome Wall Street Journal series by Julia Angwin on What They Know change anyone's behavior? did any needles shift?

Jerry: it's where traffic exits a Tor network

we were testing some new circumvention tech -- and while the test was successful, NBC's automated DMCA harassment machine now thinks that the traffic originated with us.

Maybe we should respond to NBC and tell them to stop trying to shut down one of the only secure communications links into Tehran and Syria?

Privowny <http://privowny.com> is a French company (though based in Palo Alto) that provides personal data storage and use, all encrypted and available only to the customer. If they get subpoena'd, they can't hand over the data. They don't want access to the data. Same is true of Withings, the French company with the communicating bathroom scale: <http://withings.com>.

EFF is trying to create a dialog about privacy and government actions. https://www.eff.org/pages/who-has-your-back

Nothing has happened with government surveillance?

I guess david i saw paul ryan's speech last night

The point about an exit node is that it is what a server (like NBC) can see the traffic coming from. So they can be identified and it means the server knows this is traffic coming via Tor, even if they can't tell what user it is.

Running an exit node is considered a bit of a liability, and generally more expensive.

have folks been following LEAP?

in particular, Elija's bingo board is *really* worth looking over: https://leap.se/en/2012/security-bingo

Anyone know what "Comply with all legal requirements" means when it's all legal grey area and extralegal processes?

I'd love to know what it means. We have a lawyer. We ask what we're obligated to do. We do that.

The Five Levels of ISP Evil http://corp.sonic.net/ceo/2011/08/11/the-f…

What's interesting is that the lawyer is your lawyer

aggregate data isn't always personal. that is good

not the user's

I've always wanted to have a give you data to science day.

aggregate data brought us this: http://www.trendingkittens.com/

particularly locaiton data for trnasportation planning!

Twitter is currently challenging a subpoena for user data, but one of their key legal arguments is that they can't challenge every subpoena they get

Jerry Michalski: please take me out of your address book

speaking of twitter: http://allthingsd.com/20120830/twitter-tri…

I already turned you in, Elliot

as a prophylactic measure :)

UK comms data bill is outrageous in this respect. http://www.parliament.uk/business/committe…

two tracks taht we are talking about: 1) real-time comments/twits/photos and 2) stored data

yes to what pepper is saying. very painful innovation environment

there would be a nicer balance possible

there is opt-in each month

implied at least

well ok it is opt-out, but explicit!

in france you can't give me (buzzcar) the right to see your driving history, as we do with zipcar and your driving history. Why? because 1) electronic records aren't made available to the individual, only the police have it; and 2) the state doesn't want to put you in the position of being "coerced" to give me your data.

H+ A new film about transhumanism

4 hours total content, but all sorts of things. each of the 48 episodes is <= 10 mins

hillary: i like the transparency, but not the opt-out. It hsould be opt-in

Robin Chase: opt-in is ideal but not practical for all tech. like ours, for example; do we refuse to redirect you to a long link until and unless you opt-in? that's not a good experience

We have, since Turing, conceived of computers around 'data processing' rather than 'data privacy'; the defaults are about the copying of information. Maybe we will need to re-found the discipline around a richer model that makes the default 'do not copy'.

agree!

Isaac, unfortunately this is human

great book

After reading Thinkiong Fast and Slow, read The Righteous Mind by Haidt

The 6 hardwired moral receptors we have

thinking fast and slow is a terrific book. I have sent chapters to my staff and quote it all the time. if you ever write a website, try to do any marketing, give talks, do any communication of any kind, it is a book worth reading

Bruce's post http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2006…

and the study: http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abs…

I have become intimately acquainted with CDRs

Mandatory data retention applies to CDRs for carriers in the US.

I wonder how many databases out there have fields for "arrestable cause" or "blackmailable actions"

(whereas there is no mandatory retention of logs related to Title 1 services like Internet access.

mohamed al fayed (owner Harrods) is known to monitor every possible communication by staff, to use when he wants to get rid of them. Staff knows, and teach each other to circumvent that

Barbara +1

Doesn't it all come back to overarching power of corporations, and you need to do something about that?

those are the people you know about (following the law)

about Binney: http://www.democracynow.org/2012/4/20/excl…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment and the quote: All Evil Starts With 15 Volts

jefferson

One of the black pages in Dutch history is the extremely efficient roundup and deportation of Jes for the Germans in WWII, made possible by efficient data administration and cooperation of Dutch police

Jews

Maybe we'll experience many small acts of personal violation, rather than a few large ones

more music!!

Ram +1

Fore fun: finding life on Mars https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WP6gbxskEuw

we're resuming after break

starting with John Holdren

Thanks Jerry and Herman for the references on Thinking Fast & Slow, Righteouos Mind

did Nixon salt the earth where the old advisor's office stood? yikes!

Assistant to the President is the highest title inside the White House. there are 8 or 9 of them

I feel like I'm getting a stump speech.

you are. i think once he starts talking, then easiest more natural thing is to go into that mode. I'm sure he will recover and return

I'd love to know whatever happened to the 2008 "Obama Tech Plan"

I'm reading through the 08/14/08 draft and it's actually quite good.

hey, wouldn't you rather weigh in on spectrum sharing? more progress to be had there right now.

I'm not certain we're actually making progress there.

It's more of an evolution of incrementalism... asymptotism.

The Zeno's paradox of "change.

On Jack Marburger: http://www.stonybrook.edu/sb/marburger/obit.shtml

Anyone want to defend US Ignite as a "solution"?

* solution as measured by returning US to top of broadband list vis-a-vis other countries.

Would love to hear from those involved in US Ignite as to how this is going to work.

I love this research and paper by Yochai benckler http://www.benkler.org/Open_Wireless_V_Lic…

IP reform?

Why is "country" the appropriate unit to measure broadband speed/penetration by? The US is the average of 300m-odd people, and you would expect it to rank a long way below the outliers of small countries around the industrial world.

Sascha - to the extent that we want to catalyze next generation networks we need to create and stimulate application development that can leverage those networks. US IGNITE is by its charter assigned to convene and choreograph some of that activity. Now that it has been birthed as its own .org 501 (c)3, and basic governance is in place, there is some interesting early conversations going on. I wouldn't be placing a bet just yet but it has become a useful focal point for the conversation about next gen apps. My 2 cents ;-)

Martin: Should we do states instead?

Yes; except the FCC pre-empts most of the sovereign powers you might expect states to wield.

Lev -- I'm totally on board for pushing the envelope re: next-gen applications. I just don't see how that creates nation-wide interventions to upgrade broadband infrastructure

I think the US is naturally a nation of extremes, for a long list of reasons. Maybe celebrate the median experience of the median member of public in each jurisdiction

I like how David R has dressed well for demonstrating expertise and respect for authority

Plus "averaging" broadband speeds is daft, as (1) it should be log-based, not linear; (2) you are only looking at serialisation delay, not taking into account geographical delay or variable contention between flows and users.

Sascha, the Gig communities would benefit by a national priority to connect and experiment, no? There's a service in identifying the participants of a conversation that needs to happen on a national level.

it's a very respectful Hawaiian print...

and he does have closed toe sandals

Martin -- I've got 500+ TB of broadband data for you to analyze however you think makes sense.

Judi -- agree, I'm just worried about the rest of the country.

If demand for upgrade broadband infrastructure is predicated on the evidence of advanced apps, then US IGNITE is a intermediary to catalyst and convene those apps. So, instead of thinking about US IGNITE as a singular causal independent variable driving nation-wide interventions to upgrade broadband infrastructure, it is more like an middleware layer. As far as the Presidential directive associated with IGNITE-related to work, better to ask OSTP ;-)

And that the same constituencies (rural, poor, minority) always seem to be left out.

That's why I think Susan, you and others here should focus on the extremes of the curve: leading with the hyper-connected, eliminating the disconnected.

Lev: how do we measure success for IGNITE? How do we know if it's working to improve broadband in the United States?

The middle is too muddled to have an impact. Shift the ends of the curve and the middle will take care of itself.

San Leandro might normally be part of that constituency, but for the private-public partnership raising the level of connectivity here.

DPR: "Is spectrum a consumable for wireless communications?"

"The capacity of the network increases with the number of users of the network.... I'm pretty sure this wasn't considered..."

Sascha: No one asked me about metrics for IGNITE. I'd suggest things like growing a fund for application development in lots of different places (rather than just the usual suspects), accelerating early pilots (and counting those and aggregating best practices), and maybe some indirect effects like funded start-ups for next gen network apps.

I think IGNITE solves some serious problems -- I just worry when leaders equate IGNITE with the notion of it being a solution for the general broadband malaise the US is currently in.

Lev, do you consider Mozilla Ignite a usual suspect? Sounds like what they're doing

Way to go Elliot http://gigaom.com/mobile/ting-becomes-the-…

Sascha, agree that the program is higher level, looking in one direction, and specifically NOT addressing "the broadband problem"

Judi: Mozilla is not a usual suspect for the NSF which funded their IGNITE competition. I am not sure that Mozilla's community is the obvious one to develop code for next generation network apps (in contrast to their core competency in browser code). That being said, I'm not sure I could offer an alternative ready community (part of the chicken-egg challenge) of catalyzing new app development (as opposed to supporting a browser coding community) until the platform has been established.

Wouldn't we want a good working example at scale of cooperative mesh radio (e.g. in military or disaster NGO use) before we embark on a major spectrum reform assuming that the technology works? The Internet had unplanned failure modes, and mesh is likely to have similar issues with oscillation of traffic flows at saturation.

Herman Wagter: thanks. reading it now. didn't know when he was going to publish

"if everybody in this room had a radio, at what point would we run out of capacity? As we increase the number of antennas... by cooperation, and high incentive for cooperation, you can reduce the energy footprint because you are following a path that is area-wide rahter than volume-wide... Third point... capacity is a funciton of the signal you put in minus the uncertainty from the environment . Log of signal energy minus the log of the noise energy. So as you get more and more sensors, they can characterize the field more effectively and share the nature of the field, and can share the information and reduce the noise. Energy has nothing to do with info capacity. So the compbination of those things ahve been studied. If you have interop, you get coop, which increases scale. The point is under the FCC regulatory system, we will not see architectures developed like that. The private sector is uninterested in cooperation. In the public sector we have a strong need. 911 report said we need this, and nothing has been done. But there is a huge demand, and an obvioius reason for that demand. So we hae a missed oppty, to figure out the interop tech, before transfering it to the private sector, where it cannot be fixed. One thing to say about all involved in the report, there is a mistake made conflating business people with science people. Not all have done serious science. Point that carries over, is that a huge amount of expretise that can be applied to how we deal with spectrum. How do you unleash that? It's a lot easier to do that in the gov't sector, and thorugh research by the likes of those who build the net, rather than those dedicated to maximizing short term gains to business." Please correct, if this poor transcription is useful.

Lev: thx, agree with chicken-egg challenge. Disclosure: we're part of a team that submitted an idea to Mozilla Ignite. It's clearly outside of "browser" but not outside of "display and control."

John H: the thrust was not to roll back earlier work, but to start with gov held spectrum that can be experimented with using new tech and new structures. And then we can get the private to be used more effectively, perhaps.

Lev, fwiw: https://mozillaignite.org/ideas/313/

DPR: worried about creating a competitive market space first.

John H: Looking for a report from David. David I: send John an email.

DI: Imagine a football stadium where everybody has a radio. The capacity would seem very limited because you have thousands of point transmitters and receivers going at once. But in a packet relay system, and each radio had a very small transmitter output and only enough to talk to a neighbor.. all of a sudden you have a system of tremendous capacity. DPR has done the fundamental systems engineering around that. DPR: credit to others at Berkeley, et. al. JH: I can make sure that this is heard. DPR: need some advice on this.

The capacity of a network is determined by its ability to resolve contention between flows; traffic on a mesh will continue to form spanning trees; thus there's likely to be a long, slow journey to make this stuff scale in practise as we will need to learn new ways of managing traffic. The choice of work-conserving queues sabotages getting to that outcome.

Isen gives a vivid picture of a football stadium full of people creating an ad hoc mesh network. Naive question: Is it possible to create an app for iPhones that operates that way? If not iPhone, how about Android?

Can those near the windows that open, open them? It's warm.

Dane +1

Tom F: I am convinced that the path we are on puts us in spectrum shortage by orders of 4 or 5 x ... 95% of spectrum is used up in guard bands... there ahve to be better ways to make this happen. ... follow Metcalfe's law... but for some reason we never seem to be able to take advantage of that, because we are stuck in 1927. Spread spectrm would have been a step , though not dramatic. We need to invest money in understanding where it can go. The idea that there are good and bad bands. The higher the frequency, the lower the path loss if the antenna apreratures are compatible. The F band you operate at hardly matters at all. Predicting that 4 or 5 years form now another understanding of radio will happen upon us. And we'd be bad to put ourselves in a corner, 1927 all over again.

As long as we insist on monoservice networks we'll have very inefficient use of whatever physical network resources we have available. Applications have wildly diverse quality and cost needs. We exclude all the applications that are most quality- or cost-sensitive.

SM:Conundrums: demonstrating the viability of technology. Our failure tomove over the last decade or more is leading to a scenario where evrythig we're worried about will be much worse. Lots of stuff is coming along, starting with open source, over which we have no control. If yoiu worry about interference, you are causing problems by failing to act (on openeng to the future). No meaningful action on shared spectrum access. we

're getting recommendations for the same things recommended half a decade ago.

SM; Three things: 1) real inerference temperature (?) 2. moving on tech reality, programmable gate array, etc. 3. tV white spaces. Need to implement and put in place the sensing alone, facet of this. Sensing based freq. use. Then expand beyond the TV bands. These are low hanging fruit. Not an easy political lift, but the science is in. What's needed is leadership. We need to move from rhetoric to action. From recommendations to timelines for action. What are we going to act on and when?

JohnH. You need to spend time on following up, more than on the report. Have formulated timelines, and will do it on this as well. Don't expect orders before the election. (all will be politically charged no matter what). But want from us the things that should not be implemented. Sins of omission.... need to make those fixes. The game is not over there. Send in thoughts that will inform the blueprint.

Elliot: No amount that can be spent on broadband can exceed in effect getting better spectrum policy. That's a business appeal.

Doc: love the synopsis -- did I miss concrete action items and timelines in John's response (I was sending him our paper)

which is available here for anyone interested: http://newamerica.net/publications/policy/…

Now oxygen

Welcome. I missed a lot, but hope I got most of the gists.

Did anyone note his email? I think it was: jholdren@ostp.eop.gov

@Pablos: http://news.discovery.com/animals/kangaroo…

Tepco report: http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/press/corp-com/r…

A great book on Darwin — and Lincoln — is Adam Gopnik's "Angels and Ages." Turns out the two men were born on the very same day in history. Remarkable differences and coincidences. One line from it: “Law is the practice of rules in a context of deals, and Lincoln believed in both.”

The National Diet of Japan Fukushima Nuclear Accident Independent Investigation Commission Report: http://naiic.go.jp/en/report/

English version only has Executive summary and the main report is still under translation

from Wikipedia, font of all knowledge: Slavery was legally ended nationwide on May 13 by the Lei Áurea ("Golden Law") of 1888, by a legal act of Isabel, Princess Imperial of Brazil. In fact, it was an institution in decline by this time (since the 1880s the country began to attract European immigrant labor instead). Brazil was the last nation in the Western world to abolish slavery.

More!

I'll just leave this here.

Last one here, thought I'd post...