#bighook-2017

judic

2017-06-12 23:17:22

@judic has joined the channel

judic

2017-06-12 23:18:31

@judic set the channel purpose: BigHook 2017 will be convened from Aug 30 to Sept 1, 2017. Contact David Isenberg for more information.

wa8dzp

2017-08-28 09:32:19

@wa8dzp has joined the channel

davidi

2017-08-28 09:32:19

@davidi has joined the channel

davidi

2017-08-28 12:24:50

Welcome to Bighook

lev.gonick

2017-08-29 07:50:51

@lev.gonick has joined the channel

shuli

2017-08-29 08:41:42

@shuli has joined the channel

davidi

2017-08-29 08:52:48

Happy Tuesday everybody . . . testing testing . . .

anne_schwieger

2017-08-29 10:22:03

@anne_schwieger has joined the channel

anne_schwieger

2017-08-29 10:22:34

Looking forward to seeing everyone soon!

jlivingood

2017-08-29 10:48:07

@jlivingood has joined the channel

brough

2017-08-29 10:56:07

@brough has joined the channel

brough

2017-08-29 10:56:37

See you tomorrow.

jerrym

2017-08-29 12:24:37

@jerrym has joined the channel

lellel

2017-08-29 12:47:03

@lellel has joined the channel

davidw

2017-08-29 13:21:32

@davidw has joined the channel

davidw

2017-08-29 13:21:55

Howdy! See you tomorrow.

davidi

2017-08-29 13:22:06

tomorrow then . . .

cherryb

2017-08-29 14:23:36

@cherryb has joined the channel

davidi

2017-08-29 16:39:09

all - if you're in Woods Hole, please join us for dinner at Airplane House starting at 6:00 PM and lasting as long as the food, the wine and the discussion lasts . . .

wseltzer

2017-08-29 16:52:16

@wseltzer has joined the channel

wseltzer

2017-08-29 16:53:26

Looking forward to seeing you tomorrow! 😎

dan

2017-08-29 18:10:45

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dsearls

2017-08-29 23:03:03

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dsearls

2017-08-29 23:35:05

Ah! Howdy. I am now here, though not Here. Still in NYC from which Joyce and I will also be transporting Sumana as well. See ya’ll soon.

jerrym

2017-08-30 06:06:47

anyone been featured on the http://www.internethistorypodcast.com/ ? I just ran across it

Internet History Podcast | From Netscape To The iPad
From Netscape To The iPad

jerrym

2017-08-30 06:28:33

the creator is Brian McCullough, who I don't know

dsearls

2017-08-30 06:38:29

My thinkings so far on Harvey, Houston and Infrastructure: http://bit.ly/nwfrstr .

Some new ways to look at infrastructure
Nothing challenges our understanding of infrastructure better than a crisis, and we have a big one now in Houston. We do with every giant storm, of course. New York is still recovering from Sandy a…

hermanw

2017-08-30 08:33:24

@hermanw has joined the channel

hermanw

2017-08-30 08:41:47

@hermanw uploaded a file:

Paper rectangles

Before small screens we use to hide behind big paper screens

(Paper rectangles)

hermanw

2017-08-30 08:45:04

Referring to Doc's piece

dymaxion

2017-08-30 10:05:32

@dymaxion has joined the channel

dymaxion

2017-08-30 10:09:06

@dymaxion uploaded a file:

Hello from the 08.00 Acela

maljay

2017-08-30 12:08:19

@maljay has joined the channel

susie

2017-08-30 12:14:55

@susie has joined the channel

wa8dzp

2017-08-30 13:23:17

First session is about to start...

jerrym

2017-08-30 13:23:20

we're about to kick off le Bighook 2017!

christophermitchell

2017-08-30 13:29:57

@christophermitchell has joined the channel

jamesvasile

2017-08-30 13:32:23

@jamesvasile has joined the channel

cayden

2017-08-30 13:34:17

@cayden has joined the channel

dangillmor

2017-08-30 13:35:04

@dangillmor has joined the channel

enoss

2017-08-30 13:36:27

@enoss has joined the channel

davidw

2017-08-30 13:37:50

barry lynn: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/30/us/politics/eric-schmidt-google-new-america.html?_r=0

Google Critic Ousted From Think Tank Funded by the Tech Giant
When the New America Foundation praised a large fine levied on Google, the people behind the statement were exiled.

wseltzer

2017-08-30 13:38:12

jinx! see also

davidw

2017-08-30 13:38:26

WASHINGTON — In the hours after European antitrust regulators levied a record $2.7 billion fine against Google in late June, an influential Washington think tank learned what can happen when a tech giant that shapes public policy debates with its enormous wealth is criticized.

The New America Foundation has received more than $21 million from Google; its parent company’s executive chairman, Eric Schmidt; and his family’s foundation since the think tank’s founding in 1999. That money helped to establish New America as an elite voice in policy debates on the American left.

But not long after one of New America’s scholars posted a statement on the think tank’s website praising the European Union’s penalty against Google, Mr. Schmidt, who had been chairman of New America until 2016, communicated his displeasure with the statement to the group’s president, Anne-Marie Slaughter, according to the scholar.

susie

2017-08-30 13:38:52

Half-assed denial from Anne-Marie Slaughter https://twitter.com/SlaughterAM/status/902874942433263616

jerrym

2017-08-30 13:40:22

what's the first rule of Bighook?

jim_baller

2017-08-30 13:41:35

@jim_baller has joined the channel

davidw

2017-08-30 13:42:28

To the newbies: Disparagement is very rare here. Very.

jerrym

2017-08-30 13:43:10

we, do, however, parage a lot

davidw

2017-08-30 13:43:12

To the newbies, in 18 years, we have lost no more than 35 toes and fingers.

davidw

2017-08-30 13:43:24

Ask David I to see the collection.

davidw

2017-08-30 13:44:01

He calls it the Digital Disconnection collection.

hermanw

2017-08-30 13:44:28

Definition of parage
plural -s

:  equality of condition, blood, or dignity

hermanw

2017-08-30 13:44:39

added to my vocabulary 🙂

benwizner

2017-08-30 13:44:42

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mljones

2017-08-30 13:44:51

@mljones has joined the channel

jerrym

2017-08-30 13:45:10

didn't know it was a word! tx, Herman 🙂

jamesvasile

2017-08-30 13:45:19

The community award can be bought with booze, payable in bottled whiskey, or so I would like you to believe.

roelofm

2017-08-30 13:46:18

@roelofm has joined the channel

davidw

2017-08-30 13:47:06

On the last day, there’s frequently a jam of people waving 3 min cards, so early is indeed better.

dangillmor

2017-08-30 13:47:54

New America's response is not persuasive (it starts off by denying what I don't think anyone specifically alleged). Bad situation in general. https://www.newamerica.org/new-america/press-releases/new-americas-response-new-york-times/

New America's Response to the New York Times
New America's statement in response to the New York Times.

jlivingood

2017-08-30 13:48:07

Some very entertaining reply comments to this tweet... https://twitter.com/SlaughterAM/status/902874942433263616

This story is false. @NewAmerica will issue statement shortly. We are proud of Open Markets work. https://nyti.ms/2whqzrG

jlivingood

2017-08-30 13:50:03

What's the name / website of the pottery studio?

jamesvasile

2017-08-30 13:50:19

http://store.thesoftearth.com/

jamesvasile

2017-08-30 13:50:28

@jlivingood ^^^

lellel

2017-08-30 13:51:01

@jlivingood a tragedy of the intellectual commons in the making?

davidw

2017-08-30 13:53:44

Tamar is among the few of us here who can sing her three minute card.

davidw

2017-08-30 13:57:19

https://action.aclu.org/secure/become-freedom-fighter-join-aclu-7

Become a Freedom Fighter — Join the ACLU
People across the country are coming together to stand up for what they believe is right.

enoss

2017-08-30 13:57:32

all the google enemies come out in the thread and dance with glee!

davidw

2017-08-30 13:58:33

We need to settle on a norm for this meeting: Do we clap after each intro or not? (IMO: absolutely.)

davidw

2017-08-30 13:59:02

https://www.digitalasiahub.org/

davidw

2017-08-30 14:00:46

https://www.theengineroom.org/

The Engine Room
We are an international organisation that helps activists, organisations, and other social change agents make the most of data and technology to increase their impact.

jerrym

2017-08-30 14:05:44

do speakers saying "fake news" now have to use air quotes? is that law now?

enoss

2017-08-30 14:05:45

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C94EafkVoAAeAdC.jpg

hermanw

2017-08-30 14:06:20

Have put an excellent slidedeck on information warfare in references

davidw

2017-08-30 14:06:29

http://www.otheringandbelonging.org/divided-and-platformed/

davidw

2017-08-30 14:07:23

@davidw uploaded a file:

Pasted image at 2017-08-30, 2:07 PM

davidw

2017-08-30 14:09:58

https://www.baller.com/1994/11/the-essential-role-of-consumer-owned-electric-utilities-in-developing-the-national-information-infrastructure/

The Essential Role of Consumer-owned Electric Utilities in Developing the National Information Infrastructure - Baller Stokes & Lide, PC
AMERICAN PUBLIC POWER ASSOCIATION ANNUAL TELECOMMUNICATIONS CONFERENCE NASHVILLE, TENNESSEE October 31-November 1, 1994 THE ESSENTIAL ROLE OF CONSUMER-OWNED ELECTRIC UTILITIES IN DEVELOPING THE NATIONAL INFORMATION …

davidw

2017-08-30 14:10:44

https://muninetworks.org/reports/case-public-fiber-user-systems

The Case for Public Fiber-to-the-User Systems
Jim Baller and Casey Lide are two of the foremost experts on municipal broadband systems in the United States. This report offers a clear and rational defense of publicly owned broadband systems. The discussion takes on philosophical, economic, and pragmatic arguments and comes to the conclusion that communities should not be prevented from building their own networks.

davidw

2017-08-30 14:11:19

Gary Bolles: https://medium.com/@gbolles/welcome-to-the-digital-work-economy-12dbc78faf52

Welcome to the Digital Work Economy – Gary A. Bolles – Medium
I’ve spent the past four years reading everything I could find about The Big Shift in the way we work. I’ve learned from communities like…

lev.gonick

2017-08-30 14:11:26

http://www.onecommunity.org

lev.gonick

2017-08-30 14:11:35

http://www.digitalc.org

Civic tech collaboration partners with community designing technology-driven programs| DigitalC
Catalyzing Technology for Community Impact

lev.gonick

2017-08-30 14:11:49

http://www.civicinsights.org

davidw

2017-08-30 14:12:20

Thanks, Lev. It’s very helpful to have people posting their own links.

lev.gonick

2017-08-30 14:12:32

Trying to help you David 😉

christophermitchell

2017-08-30 14:12:39

Jim was also a founder of the Coalition for Local Internet Choice - http://www.localnetchoice.org/

lev.gonick

2017-08-30 14:12:41

http://www.learningstudios.org

Cleveland Data Science & Analytics Bootcamps & Classes | Learning Studios
Learn useful data and accessible, and tactical data and data analytics skills courses that are immediately useful on the job.

dangillmor

2017-08-30 14:14:55

I loathe the expression "fake news" and encourage people not to use it, because a) it juxtaposes words that should not be next to each other and b) it's been taken over by people who lie all the time.

davidw

2017-08-30 14:14:56

https://www.epic.org/

EPIC - Electronic Privacy Information Center
The Electronic Privacy Information Center (EPIC) focuses public attention on emerging civil liberties, privacy, First Amendment issues and works to promote the Public Voice in decisions concerning the future of the Internet.

rmohan

2017-08-30 14:17:00

@rmohan has joined the channel

davidw

2017-08-30 14:18:05

A paper by Rick from 2004: http://www.repository.law.indiana.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1384&context=fclj|www.repository.law.indiana.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1384&context=fclj

davidw

2017-08-30 14:18:25

https://www.fightforthefuture.org/

Fight for the Future, defending our basic rights and freedoms
Fight for the Future is dedicated to protecting and expanding the Internet's transformative power in our lives by creating civic campaigns that are engaging for millions of people.

enoss

2017-08-30 14:22:03

I am not terribly interested in talking net neutrality. support?

lev.gonick

2017-08-30 14:22:43

I agree w. you Elliot. I think infrastructure and the 'local' impacts would be closer to my interests.

rmohan

2017-08-30 14:22:43

👍:skin-tone-4: Scott to converse beyond FCC and US jurisdictions

christophermitchell

2017-08-30 14:22:53

Agree with Elliot... not sure what new there is to talk about

wseltzer

2017-08-30 14:23:12

+1 Infrastructure at the deeper level undergirds it

davidw

2017-08-30 14:23:27

+1 … but no fine for mentioning NN.

dymaxion

2017-08-30 14:23:45

BTW, if you want to have folks vote on a thing, /poll <subject> "option A" "option B" will do it here

cayden

2017-08-30 14:24:07

Agree. would be more interested in talking about platform monopolies generally

davidw

2017-08-30 14:25:27

Here’s an article I wrote for Ting about common carriage that Barb was enormously helpful with. https://ting.com/blog/getting-straight-about-common-carriers-and-title-ii/

Getting straight about common carriers and Title II
Open Access is a section of the Ting blog dedicated to discussions about the open Internet, net neutrality and other important online topics. If you’re already convinced that Internet access should be classified under Title II, Tumblr has a great grassroots campaign on the go. Read on for all the gory details on Title II, … Continue reading Getting straight about common carriers and Title II

alixtrot

2017-08-30 14:25:35

@alixtrot has joined the channel

dangillmor

2017-08-30 14:27:25

Re earlier comment, I encourage people not to use the expression "fake news" because a) it juxtaposes words that should not be next to each other and b) it's been taken over by people who lie all the time.

dangillmor

2017-08-30 14:28:44

Yes! Use "common carriers" instead of "utilities" when discussing net neutrality and its implications...

cayden

2017-08-30 14:28:52

Curious what folks you know are using to refer to it, @dangillmor. I have been struggling to describe it in our advocacy.

susie

2017-08-30 14:29:16

+1 @dangillmor. It's become a dog whistle, and it's vague. For our VizLab project, we are more often saying "visual propaganda."

hermanw

2017-08-30 14:29:23

@cayden information warfare

davidw

2017-08-30 14:29:52

From the archives: Wired article on Dewayne from 2002: https://www.wired.com/2002/01/hendricks/

Broadband Cowboy
As Beltway bureaucrats keep America in the wireless Dark Ages, a spectrum revolt is brewing in the heart of Indian country. Dewayne Hendricks will go awfully far out of his way to prove a point. He has mounted transceivers on rooftops in Mongolia and traveled to the South Seas to build a broadband network for […]

dymaxion

2017-08-30 14:30:32

@susie Hey, do you know about David Perlman's work?

davidw

2017-08-30 14:30:52

I’m clocking 93mbps now. Somewhat better than, say, 2001.

dangillmor

2017-08-30 14:31:01

@cayden two places to start: from First Draft Coalition, "Fake News: It's Complicated" -- https://firstdraftnews.com/fake-news-complicated/ - and Data and Society's "Lexicon of Lies" https://datasociety.net/output/lexicon-of-lies/

Fake news. It's complicated.
To understand the misinformation ecosystem, here's a break down of the types of fake content, content creators motivations and how it's being disseminated

Lexicon of Lies: Terms for Problematic Information
New guide navigates terms for propaganda and other problematic information

mljones

2017-08-30 14:31:55

would love to talk about the precarity of the infrastructure and values that enabled--for a far briefer period that and in a small number of places--forms of journalism committed and enabled and understood to work with some strong commitment to facticity; the historically unusual space in which there could be news that was more than propaganda

susie

2017-08-30 14:32:16

No, link?

christophermitchell

2017-08-30 14:32:34

Greatly appreciative of Jason for the Internet connection but don't think we should call radically asymmetric connection a gigabit. The Internet needs two-way connectivity. The Comcast gig is a consumer product, not an Internet product for producers.

davidw

2017-08-30 14:32:38

2001: Projectors hanging from the beams, as I recall

dangillmor

2017-08-30 14:33:00

The misinformation ecosystem is incredibly complex. I end up using different expressions to describe the specific situation.

davidw

2017-08-30 14:34:08

Tom Freeburg: https://www.bloomberg.com/research/stocks/private/person.asp?personId=9321777&privcapId=9247418

Thomas A. Freeburg: Executive Profile & Biography - Bloomberg
Thomas A. Freeburg has been Chief Operating Officer and Director of Strategy of MemoryLink Corp. since March 2004. Mr. Freeburg is one of the foremost experts in broadband Internet, particularly in the area of unlicensed wireless platforms. He holds 60 patents, is a lecturer and an author with over

dymaxion

2017-08-30 14:34:18

This is a useful reminder about the structure of the pointier end of IW and the ways in which the US command structure as failed to understand their own ideas: https://cybersecpolitics.blogspot.com/2017/05/network-centric-warfare.html

Network Centric Warfare
I feel like people have a small view of Network Centric Warfare. I feel like part of this problem is the old-school thought-memes that a...

dymaxion

2017-08-30 14:34:44

(Lin Wells, who was CTO of the DoD in the late 90's, would be a really amazing addition to this crowd)

jerrym

2017-08-30 14:34:50

very interesting that the Archive's new framing question is the future of civil discourse

dymaxion

2017-08-30 14:35:10

I don't think there's anything public; he's at Twitter and working on some similar stuff as a side-project

susie

2017-08-30 14:36:47

Interesting -- I would imagine some folks at the platforms would have to be looking at this stuff too

enoss

2017-08-30 14:38:14

http://www.cbc.ca/radio/thecurrent/the-current-for-december-2-2016-1.3876956/fear-of-trump-has-the-internet-archive-moving-to-canada-1.3877136

Fear of Trump has the Internet Archive moving to Canada
Brewster Kahle wants to backup his entire internet archive, billions of pages, in Canada.

sob

2017-08-30 14:39:35

@sob has joined the channel

davidw

2017-08-30 14:40:37

https://changeset.nyc/

dymaxion

2017-08-30 14:41:07

Yeah. His work on it isn't actually part of his day job though, which makes it a bit more interesting.

dymaxion

2017-08-30 14:41:31

Also, we should have another talk about some of the implications of this work if you get to being effective.

davidw

2017-08-30 14:42:09

https://bids.berkeley.edu/events/great-exploitations-data-mining-legal-modernization-and-nsa

Great Exploitations: Data Mining, Legal Modernization, and the NSA
We cannot understand the programs revealed by Edward Snowden and other whistleblowers without understanding a broader set of historical developments before and after 9/11. With the growing spread of computation into everyday transactions from the 1960s into the 1990s, corporations and governments collected exponentially more information about consumers and citizens.

davidw

2017-08-30 14:43:23

http://imn.it/the-spy-who-pwned-me/

davidw

2017-08-30 14:43:46

“How did we get to state-sponsored hacking? Matt Jones traces the legal authorities and technical capacities that have transformed the power of the nation-state since the 1990s.”

susie

2017-08-30 14:44:05

🙏

lev.gonick

2017-08-30 14:44:21

@brewsterkahle Seems to me that resilience and persistence are two key attributes of infrastructure and the "archive" continues to be the right framing. Our collective existential anxiety and growing sense of urgency is somehow made less worrisome by infrastructure like the Internet Archive. My two cents.

jerrym

2017-08-30 14:44:25

strange. the imn.it link isn't working for me

jlivingood

2017-08-30 14:44:29

Correct URL is http://limn.it/the-spy-who-pwned-me/

The spy who pwned me
How did we get to state-sponsored hacking? Matt Jones traces the legal authorities and technical capacities that have transformed the power of the nation-state since the 1990s.

jerrym

2017-08-30 14:44:47

that splains everything!

susie

2017-08-30 14:44:53

I'd blindly guess if people at the platforms are working on this, they're not going to be public about it. "Fake news" is so loaded as it is.

lev.gonick

2017-08-30 14:45:24

Looks like Brewster is not on Slack 😉

jamesvasile

2017-08-30 14:46:22

@mljones If you're writing about stats for a lay audience, you might want to look at https://towcenter.gitbooks.io/curious-journalist-s-guide-to-data/content/, which was written by Jonathan Stray, who is at Columbia's J school

mljones

2017-08-30 14:47:09

on IW, see https://archive.org/details/14F0492Doc01DirectiveTS3600.1

TS-3600.1 Information Warfare : Department of Defense : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive
DODD TS-3600.1 Information Warfare

davidw

2017-08-30 14:48:20

http://dangillmor.com/

Dan Gillmor
Just in case you were still wondering…

davidw

2017-08-30 14:48:53

Two excellent prior books of Dan’s: 1. We the Media. 2. Mediactive

christophermitchell

2017-08-30 14:49:36

Can we say "fake news" ironically?

davidw

2017-08-30 14:50:14

http://capeandislands.org/programs/living-lab-radio

Living Lab Radio
Each week, Living Lab Radio brings you conversations at the intersection of science and culture. Connect with scientists for fresh perspectives on the week

susie

2017-08-30 14:51:48

Knight's 20 funded projects tackling media literacy, trust, "fake news" https://knightfoundation.org/press/releases/knight-prototype-fund-awards-1-million-to-20-projects-to-improve-the-flow-of-accurate-information

Knight Prototype Fund awards $1 million to 20 projects to improve the flow of accurate information
Phoenix, Az. – June 22, 2017– Twenty projects that seek to improve the flow of accurate information will receive $1 million through the Knight Prototype Fund, which helps people explore early-stage...

dangillmor

2017-08-30 14:52:16

@christophermitchell sure, if you're absolutely certain that whoever you're talking to will recognize the irony!

christophermitchell

2017-08-30 14:52:29

Cory's new book - Walkaway is pretty awesome - http://www.npr.org/2017/04/27/523587179/in-walkaway-a-blueprint-for-a-new-weird-but-better-world

In 'Walkaway,' A Blueprint For A New, Weird (But Better) World
Cory Doctorow's latest novel is set in a ripped-from-the-headlines near future dystopia, where the creative and the capable — and the lost — are walking into the wilderness to build a new world.

jerrym

2017-08-30 14:53:03

@wa8dzp and I have been talking about Walkaway multiple times already. feels like a background theme for this year's BH

dymaxion

2017-08-30 14:53:33

Well, part of the complexity is that he's not looking to study, he's looking to directly counter.

dymaxion

2017-08-30 14:53:48

Studying it is... safer. Even ignoring the unintended consequences side.

mljones

2017-08-30 14:56:05

Cory's Walkaway very useful for imagining work without falling into anemesiac nostalgia around post-war labor and its exclusions

dangillmor

2017-08-30 14:56:44

Walkaway is the first dystopian book that left me optimistic...

davidw

2017-08-30 14:56:53

It’s about the top layer of Oakland’s infrastructure stack, one might say?

hermanw

2017-08-30 14:58:59

"Crabs in a Bucket" 😉

davidw

2017-08-30 14:59:19

“One Hell of a Crab” - good title??

hermanw

2017-08-30 14:59:32

"Big Crabs"

davidw

2017-08-30 15:00:09

Ok, Herman, I know we’re not supposed to disparage what others say here, but for you I’m going to make an exception 😋

hermanw

2017-08-30 15:00:29

I stand corected

hermanw

2017-08-30 15:00:37

corrected

davidw

2017-08-30 15:01:03

https://litsanleandro.com/

hermanw

2017-08-30 15:03:10

Thats why you need a buffer (Powerwall like) at home....

hermanw

2017-08-30 15:04:38

To isolate the data

susie

2017-08-30 15:05:16

My interest is very apolitical, really, more so than my collaborators -- I want to know how and why people put words and pictures together and share them in order to try to spread info or make a point. And then use that to justify visual journalism to media companies, etc.

dymaxion

2017-08-30 15:07:05

fair

wseltzer

2017-08-30 15:10:59

https://telecominfraproject.com/

dangillmor

2017-08-30 15:14:18

@hermanw is there a way to have a buffer that gives false granular info to the power company but accurate overall info?

dymaxion

2017-08-30 15:14:52

The public good argument would be credible if they were building open connectivity.

dymaxion

2017-08-30 15:15:02

And that may be true for the infrastructure work.

dymaxion

2017-08-30 15:15:05

But... yeah.

jlivingood

2017-08-30 15:16:06

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-intersect/wp/2017/08/03/even-mark-zuckerberg-cant-stop-the-meme-that-he-is-running-for-president/?utm_term=.3012234635c7

Analysis | Even Mark Zuckerberg can’t stop the meme that he is running for president
He has twice denied that he is running for president. He also went to Iowa.

hermanw

2017-08-30 15:17:19

@dangillmor when you have a smart meter, the total nett demand is measured. A buffer isolates the individual demands. A buffer removes the need for the utility to dig deep in your appliances and finetjne their individual demand profiles. That would create the IoT horror show.

hermanw

2017-08-30 15:18:02

@dangillmor by the way, there is a very active community doing D.IY powerwalls, even with second hand laptop batteries

cayden

2017-08-30 15:18:33

can we bio break soon? i don't want to miss any intros, but could use a stretch etc

hermanw

2017-08-30 15:18:48

http://diypowerwalls.com/

DIY Powerwalls
A small community chatting about alternative uses for 18650 batteries and home made powerwall.

enoss

2017-08-30 15:19:01

@cayden just wait for my bio. tres boring and will give you a nice window!

christophermitchell

2017-08-30 15:19:03

Break scheduled at 3:30

davidw

2017-08-30 15:19:30

http://facesofopensource.com/karen-copenhaver/

Karen Copenhaver
Karen Copenhaver, New York City, 2016.

christophermitchell

2017-08-30 15:19:49

I don't know what people mean when they say "government"

christophermitchell

2017-08-30 15:20:09

Kinda like a "business" - Elliot's firm is VERY different from Google from Comcast from a grocer down the street.

christophermitchell

2017-08-30 15:20:22

Government means very different things depending on context

christophermitchell

2017-08-30 15:20:39

Local governments have built some of the best networks on the planet.

mrr

2017-08-30 15:21:04

@mrr has joined the channel

enoss

2017-08-30 15:21:07

ya I will snark here. the whole "business has too much power" meme is making me a little crazy

enoss

2017-08-30 15:21:23

a likely use of my 3 minute card

christophermitchell

2017-08-30 15:21:35

Elliot -the monopolies do have too much power. Doesn't mean all businesses do, of course

davidw

2017-08-30 15:22:10

Afilias apparently couldn’t wrangle a .com TLD 🙂 http://www.afilias.info/

Visit the Top Level Domain (TLD) Registry Services and DNS Solutions Experts | Afilias
Afilias powers key Internet infrastructure, including the .info, .org and .mobi Top Level Domains (TLDs). Visit the Afilias registry services and DNS experts.

jlivingood

2017-08-30 15:23:24

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/oct/26/ddos-attack-dyn-mirai-botnet

DDoS attack that disrupted internet was largest of its kind in history, experts say
Dyn, the victim of last week’s denial of service attack, said it was orchestrated using a weapon called the Mirai botnet as the ‘primary source of malicious attack’

davidw

2017-08-30 15:25:42

Well, that wasn’t scary!

jlivingood

2017-08-30 15:26:12

Agree - attacks now more organic & variable. Old methods to detect/block/remediate don't work or don't scale well enough.

jlivingood

2017-08-30 15:27:30

"Kinetic response" is problematic in the face of IP address spoofing (making it look like attribution is to someone else). 😉

christophermitchell

2017-08-30 15:28:19

How many firms are working on this? I get the sense Comcast et al think about it. Who isn't thinking about it that needs to be?

davidw

2017-08-30 15:28:19

Best rhyme for taxation ever.

hermanw

2017-08-30 15:28:57

I think Cory said that any system beyond a certain complexity will have all these issues, and would need to copy proven defense systems like the ones living organisms have developed: Immune systems.

rmohan

2017-08-30 15:29:42

@christophermitchell , most thinking is happening in silos. There's no "safe space" to share and solve

jerrym

2017-08-30 15:33:08

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TOGgXA4vZE

Fats Waller - We the People

davidw

2017-08-30 16:03:01

http://jerrysbrain.com/

hmhgoldstone

2017-08-30 16:03:35

@hmhgoldstone has joined the channel

brewsterkahle

2017-08-30 16:04:01

@brewsterkahle has joined the channel

brewsterkahle

2017-08-30 16:04:10

hello, world.

davidw

2017-08-30 16:04:53

@davidw uploaded a file:

Pasted image at 2017-08-30, 4:04 PM

davidw

2017-08-30 16:05:13

@davidw uploaded a file:

Pasted image at 2017-08-30, 4:05 PM

davidw

2017-08-30 16:05:53

@davidw uploaded a file:

Probably not the same brain:

davidw

2017-08-30 16:06:59

https://www.patreon.com/whatifwetrustedyou/posts

Jerry Michalski is creating a way forward | Patreon
Become a patron of Jerry Michalski today: Read 10 posts by Jerry Michalski and get access to exclusive content and experiences on the world’s largest membership platform for artists and creators.

susie

2017-08-30 16:07:49

https://www.theverge.com/2017/8/3/16084248/patreon-profile-jack-conte-crowdfunding-art-politics-culture

Inside Patreon, the economic engine of internet culture
In 2013, Peter Hollens was an aspiring a cappella singer surviving, in his words, by living on ramen in someone else’s house. Hollens was hardly new to the music business; he’d been a record...

rmohan

2017-08-30 16:08:14

careful of which URL you type in. patreon.com is correct. patrion.com will attempt to inject malware onto your computer systems

davidw

2017-08-30 16:08:16

https://18millionrising.org/about/

About
Activating Asian America

davidw

2017-08-30 16:09:04

When we launched in September 2012, there were approximately 18 million Asians and Pacific Islanders in the United States, representing nearly 6% of the total population and growing faster than any other racial group. Despite that, Asian Americans remain one of the most politically under–organized, under–engaged, and under–represented constituencies: only 55% of Asian American citizens of voting age are registered to vote — the lowest rate of all races.

18MR.org was founded to promote AAPI civic engagement, influence, and movement by leveraging the power of technology and social media. For the past three years, we’ve convened a network of creative, tech-savvy, and passionate individuals and organizations working in and with AAPI communities in every U.S. state and territory. Our vision of engaged AAPI communities began with, but doesn’t end with, the ballot box: it also includes year-round civic activity locally and nationally, holding corporations accountable, building interracial coalitions, and developing our shared identities.

christophermitchell

2017-08-30 16:09:22

18 Million Rising meme I enjoyed...

jerrym

2017-08-30 16:09:23

more on trust: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxY-ki92XYQ&list=PLreQNsM8LqWAPTcw1dno2Nr_SRT8FZtFz

Trust and Trustworthiness

christophermitchell

2017-08-30 16:09:23

https://twitter.com/18millionrising/status/902226184301404160

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DIVZ7fpWsAUTs5-.jpg

wseltzer

2017-08-30 16:10:22

@cayden love your phrase on "organizing is building trust so you can take calculated risks together." Do you know Zeynep Tufecki - https://www.twitterandteargas.org/ ?

Twitter and Tear Gas
“Twitter and Tear Gas: The Power and Fragility of Networked Protest” is riveting firsthand account and incisive analysis of modern protest, revealing internet-fueled social movements’ greatest strengths and frequent challenges. Written by Zeynep Tufekci, an associate professor at the University of North Carolina and a contributing opinion writer at the New York Times who is currently also a faculty associate at the Harvard Berkman Klein Center for Internet and Society.

davidw

2017-08-30 16:12:25

http://vote.18mr.org/

#MyAAPIVote 2016
Activating Asian Pacific America

davidw

2017-08-30 16:13:17

https://ilsr.org/about-the-institute-for-local-self-reliance/staff-and-board/christopher-mitchell/

Christopher Mitchell
Christopher Mitchell is the Director of the Community Broadband Networks Initiative. Christopher’s work focuses on telecommunications — helping communities ensure the networks upon which they depend are accountable to the community. He is a leading national expert on community broadband networks and speaks at conferences across the United States on the subject, occasionally to directly debate…

jerrym

2017-08-30 16:13:36

@christophermitchell in my Brain (for example): https://webbrain.com/u/16ft

cayden

2017-08-30 16:13:41

@wseltzer yes! I discovered Tufecki's work while in grad school and I think she is one of the smartest people doing research on social media and social movements these days

davidw

2017-08-30 16:14:11

https://muninetworks.org/

davidw

2017-08-30 16:15:53

https://twitter.com/sportshotchris

christopher mitchell (@SportShotChris) | Twitter
The latest Tweets from christopher mitchell (@SportShotChris). Sports Photographer, Telecom Policy Junkie, book addict. St. Paul, MN

wseltzer

2017-08-30 16:15:58

"we believe cities should be free to make dumb decisions [with some caveats]"

christophermitchell

2017-08-30 16:16:23

I'm more active on http://twitter.com/communitynets

Christopher Mitchell (@communitynets) | Twitter
The latest Tweets from Christopher Mitchell (@communitynets). Focusing on Community Broadband Networks (mostly fiber-optic) - the essential infrastructure communities need. Minneapolis, Minnesota

davidw

2017-08-30 16:16:52

https://twitter.com/hermanwagter?lang=en

Herman Wagter (@hermanwagter) | Twitter
The latest Tweets from Herman Wagter (@hermanwagter). Fiber Evangelist, Network Nurturer, Complexity Student, Mythbuster, Rough terrain cyclist. Mostly travelling in the Nethe

davidw

2017-08-30 16:17:15

http://hermanwagter.nl

dymaxion

2017-08-30 16:17:59

It'd be really ironic to use such an energy-centric compute structure for co2 accounting

davidw

2017-08-30 16:18:10

Maybe this? https://www.wired.com/2017/05/curious-plan-save-environment-blockchain/

Bitcoin could be a model for making environmentalism more efficient
Blockchain versus pollution.

davidw

2017-08-30 16:19:28

bitcoin’s environmental cost: https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/ypkp3y/bitcoin-is-still-unsustainable

A Single Bitcoin Transaction Takes Thousands of Times More Energy Than a Credit Card Swipe
While the digital currency has gotten more energy efficient in the last few years, it's still significantly less sustainable than other forms of payment.

christophermitchell

2017-08-30 16:21:14

I found this more compelling than I expected regarding Brexit - why people voted for it and why they weren't upset about doing so... they felt they had lost local control over their lives. This is very important in our context as well. http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/03/are-the-brits-bonkers-to-brexit.html

Are the Brits Bonkers to Brexit?
They put democratic accountability over economic well-being — and seem to have no regrets.

davidw

2017-08-30 16:22:02

https://wendy.seltzer.org/

Wendy Seltzer's Home Page
Home page of the New York Seltzer

davidw

2017-08-30 16:22:28

(Yes, that’s Wendy’s home page.)

davidw

2017-08-30 16:22:53

Wendy is also the founder of http://www.lumendatabase.org/ , nee Chilling Effects

jlivingood

2017-08-30 16:24:36

If EME is a topic it merits debate that airs multiple perspectives on the issue.

davidw

2017-08-30 16:25:12

https://www.w3.org/2017/07/EME-backgrounder.html

jlivingood

2017-08-30 16:25:33

https://www.w3.org/blog/2017/02/on-eme-in-html5/

jlivingood

2017-08-30 16:26:59

The appeal of Sir Tim Berners Lee's recommendation is also being interpreted as a vote of confidence / no confidence in his role. If it goes against the Director there is an open question as to the future of the W3C IMO.

jlivingood

2017-08-30 16:27:39

EME is not equal to DRM. The EFF issue is with Section 1201 of the DMCA. That is the root issue.

hermanw

2017-08-30 16:27:58

@christophermitchell the investigations that dug deeper into why people voted for Leave gave a different view.

davidw

2017-08-30 16:28:13

Patreon?

jerrym

2017-08-30 16:28:34

Wendy's corporate conundrum raises a question I'm really interested in: Trump's election seems to have burbled up the many employees in corporations who indeed want to do right by the world. How might we link/arm/help them change their employers' ways? (for the good)

davidw

2017-08-30 16:29:01

This is the most humble group ever!

jerrym

2017-08-30 16:29:13

that from the humblest guy ever!

jlivingood

2017-08-30 16:29:27

The Internet Society provided some financial support to W3C for a few years. https://www.w3.org/2009/11/isoc-w3c-faq

davidw

2017-08-30 16:29:30

Blown to Bits: http://www.bitsbook.com/

christophermitchell

2017-08-30 16:29:37

@hermanw I have no doubt there was some good old-fashioned xenophobia and racism as well. But I was surprised how many people had a pretty legitimate beef with the structure of governance in Europe.

susie

2017-08-30 16:29:45

Zephyr Teachout op/ed on New America axing Open Markets https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/posteverything/wp/2017/08/30/zephyr-teachout-google-is-coming-after-critics-in-academia-and-journalism-its-time-to-stop-them/?tid=ss_tw&utm_term=.0fa444d26dd0

Perspective | Google is coming after critics in academia and journalism. It’s time to stop them.
The tech giant is silencing academics and journalists, writing public school curriculums and recruiting law professors who support its views.

hermanw

2017-08-30 16:31:12

@dymaxion agreed, when you limit yourself to current blockchain implementation where proof of work is energy intensive. There are variations investigated that are very energy frugal, and more distributed, require less power. The trade off is that accountability security is less, but that can be allowed if combined with traditional accounting, and exception reporting on fraud indicators.

christophermitchell

2017-08-30 16:31:20

Matt's network - https://www.sctca.net/southern-california-tribal-digital-village

davidw

2017-08-30 16:31:39

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=baetCtJqZ1E

Community Connections - Matt Rantanen, Tribal Digital Village

susie

2017-08-30 16:31:43

I drew a comic about Matt a couple years ago https://psmag.com/environment/cmon-uncle-sam

Native America Online
Native Americans have long struggled to convince Internet service providers to install networks on their land—but homegrown tribal solutions are facing unique challenges too.

dymaxion

2017-08-30 16:32:13

@hermanw Can you link me to something? I can't see how that would be anything other than basically a trusted network model that assumes no threats.

hermanw

2017-08-30 16:32:42

@christophermitchell the funny thing is that most of that blame was misinformed, not understanding that it was UK regulation, or implementation in a specific way by their government. EU was the scapegoat

christophermitchell

2017-08-30 16:33:08

@hermanw I'm curious to learn more

wseltzer

2017-08-30 16:33:20

gosh @davidw, I really need to update that homepage

hermanw

2017-08-30 16:33:28

@christophermitchell let me see where i can find references

christophermitchell

2017-08-30 16:33:36

Many tribal areas don't just lack Internet access, many don't even have telephone

cayden

2017-08-30 16:33:57

I also accumulate things I do in this location: http://bodywithout.org/

Home
community tech. racial justice. participatory design. cats.

davidw

2017-08-30 16:34:20

@wseltzer , what would be a better page to link to for general purpose Wendiness?

davidw

2017-08-30 16:34:39

http://www.ting.com

davidw

2017-08-30 16:34:53

http://www.tucows.com

davidw

2017-08-30 16:35:29

Ting: Laying infrastructure while no one is paying attention.™

dymaxion

2017-08-30 16:35:44

@jlivingood I think it's more than DMCA 1201 -- if the DRM providers want to accept full software liability for their code, fine, but without that... yeah, no.

davidw

2017-08-30 16:35:54

https://ting.com/internet

christophermitchell

2017-08-30 16:37:26

Some guy interviews Elliot about his project in Westminster, Maryland: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjsPvczRHiQ

Westminster & Ting: The How and the Why

davidw

2017-08-30 16:37:45

http://www.hover.com

Domain Names | Buy Domains & Email At Hover.com
Find the perfect domain name for your idea at Hover. All domains come with industry-leading customer support and free WHOIS privacy. Name your passion today!

hermanw

2017-08-30 16:38:08

GDPR, see reference

christophermitchell

2017-08-30 16:38:10

Thanks Elliot for sponsoring many podcasts I enjoy 😃

dymaxion

2017-08-30 16:38:17

That... doesn't seem like it makes sense.

mrr

2017-08-30 16:38:20

http://umoyanetworks.org/

davidw

2017-08-30 16:38:23

http://domainnamewire.com/2017/08/17/gdpr-whois/

Will May 2018 be the death of Whois?
Whois will change forever next year. On May 25, 2018, the European Union's General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR) will go into full effect. The privacy regulation will have a major impact on industries that handle personal data of people in the EU, including the domain name industry. Domain name companies are scrambling to figure out how to comply with the regulation, all while racing against the clock with unclear guidelines from the EU and ICANN. A sweeping new privacy regulation GDPR is a regulation designed to protect the privacy of European Union citizens and residents. It will apply to all

christophermitchell

2017-08-30 16:38:34

Also, Elliot's Hover seems to make Whois less useful by giving everyone privacy who gets domain names from them...

hermanw

2017-08-30 16:38:43

GDPR has big impact

mrr

2017-08-30 16:39:17

http://umoyanetworks.org/

christophermitchell

2017-08-30 16:41:07

This is the fastest introductory round I think I have ever been a part of ... in 6 or 7 years.

christophermitchell

2017-08-30 16:41:58

Brough was on my podcast describing what they do and how - https://muninetworks.org/content/netblazr-offering-blazing-fast-fixed-wireless-community-broadband-bits-podcast-245

netBlazr Offering Blazing Fast Fixed Wireless - Community Broadband Bits Podcast 245
Like other urban centers in the U.S., Boston is filled with multi dwelling units (MDUs) and buildings that house multiple business tenants. Obtaining high-quality connectivity in such an environment can be a challenge, especially if choices are limited to just one or two incumbents with little or no competition. With the advancement of new fixed wireless technologies in recent years, however, residential and business subscribers now have better options.

christophermitchell

2017-08-30 16:42:24

http://www.netblazr.com/

netBlazr – High Speed Broadband for Homes & Businesses
Boston's Highest rated internet service for your business or home. No contracts, no hidden fees, no teaser rates.

davidw

2017-08-30 16:50:05

testing…

davidw

2017-08-30 16:50:58

https://twitter.com/dymaxion?lang=en

Eleanor Saitta (@Dymaxion) | Twitter
The latest Tweets from Eleanor Saitta (@Dymaxion). Thinking about systems, security, failure, change, art, and living. Recruiting barbarians; complicate your narratives. LON/NYC/HEL

davidw

2017-08-30 16:53:06

http://time.com/money/4659440/fiduciary-rule-delayed-donald-trump/

Trump Wants to Kill the Fiduciary Rule. Here's Why That's a Big Deal for Retirement Savers
Should financial advisors be forced to operate in clients' best interest?

jlivingood

2017-08-30 16:53:16

https://briarproject.org/

Briar
Secure messaging, anywhere

hermanw

2017-08-30 16:53:41

@christophermitchell references drowned in the flood of information. Key finding was people were convinced regulations were EU enforced, turned out to be UK driven. Tabloid press has claimed outrageous EU regulations for years, Boris Johnson when he was reporter in Brussel invented them. People were convinced immigration was a major problem (and did not know it was conscious choice of the Uk gvt not to implement limits on immigration, because it would require investing in a registration system of inhabitants (!!). The UK is the only EU country that does not have it). Did not know that austerity was a choice by UK government. So single mothers living on the social service checks complain about low checks, and are convinced that immigration is the key. When asked why they did not take a job in restaurants and the like, the answer was : these are jobs for immigrants. There is also a longing for the time England was a world power.

davidw

2017-08-30 16:54:04

http://shulihallak.com/

Shuli Hallak
Photographing the Internet

dsearls

2017-08-30 16:54:31

https://briarproject.org/

christophermitchell

2017-08-30 16:54:33

@hermanw Thank you

dymaxion

2017-08-30 16:54:36

(Oh, and I'm on Patreon too; I'll be starting that up again hopefully in the next week or so -- patreon.com/dymaxion

hermanw

2017-08-30 16:54:43

@dymaxion Tallinn is just around the corner by ferry, lot of hot IT going on, pay is relatively low however

davidw

2017-08-30 16:54:43

@davidw uploaded a file:

Pasted image at 2017-08-30, 4:54 PM

maljay

2017-08-30 16:54:47

Not rocket science, but I'm struck by how the sub-theme of Infrastructure of Infrastructure seems to be Trusting Trust.

dymaxion

2017-08-30 16:55:06

@hermanw Yeah, I'm mostly sticking with US clients for the time being

davidw

2017-08-30 16:55:20

@davidw uploaded a file:

Pasted image at 2017-08-30, 4:55 PM

dymaxion

2017-08-30 16:55:31

I mean, I'm looking to diversify, but not really gonna be moving to locals rates. 🙂

jerrym

2017-08-30 16:55:40

Looooove Tallinn. April's an advisor to Jobbatical, based there.

dsearls

2017-08-30 16:55:43

fwiw, the largest solar power plant, shot from the sky and then the ground.. https://www.flickr.com/photos/docsearls/albums/72157684517151502

dsearls

2017-08-30 16:56:13

https://www.flickr.com/photos/docsearls/albums/72157685524951590

jerrym

2017-08-30 16:56:16

just backed you, @dymaxion 🙂

hermanw

2017-08-30 16:56:31

@dymaxion makes sense. Once you are settled and have reference to what skills and clients you have, I can feel around in Tallinn and Amsterdam in my network

davidw

2017-08-30 16:56:35

http://isoc-ny.org/

Internet Society New York Chapter (ISOC-NY)
New York Greater Metropolitan Area chapter of the Internet Society

christophermitchell

2017-08-30 16:56:43

Shuli's instagram is fun - her name Shulihallak

dsearls

2017-08-30 16:57:01

cool. maybe now I’ll get back into ISOC NY.

davidw

2017-08-30 16:57:53

One of Doc’s solar installation photos

davidw

2017-08-30 16:58:02

@davidw uploaded a file:

Pasted image at 2017-08-30, 4:57 PM

dymaxion

2017-08-30 16:58:13

@hermanw Will do! My current (terribly in need of a bit of polish) services page is https://dymaxion.org/consulting.html

hermanw

2017-08-30 17:00:24

@dymaxion you might want to read up on GDPR and connect it with security design. A loooooooot of organisations will have to scramble to deal with this

jerrym

2017-08-30 17:00:31

Steve will have to found ICANNT...

davidw

2017-08-30 17:00:33

Steve’s Internet Hall of Fame page: http://internethalloffame.org/inductees/steve-crocker

dymaxion

2017-08-30 17:01:45

@hermanw Yeah, I've done a fair bit of reading there. I'm surprised by this being the call on whois stuff, but I was working with Etsy a fair bit on those lines, and I'm helping another current client there.

maljay

2017-08-30 17:01:57

"Infrastructure should be boring"

wa8dzp

2017-08-30 17:02:00

In case you haven't noticed, network connectivity is fluttering. Looking into it.

shuli

2017-08-30 17:02:03

@dsearls please do!

jerrym

2017-08-30 17:02:51

I think the network sputters are the NSA looking for Binney...

hermanw

2017-08-30 17:02:57

@dymaxion for marketing purposes, add GDPR to year consulting I would say

hermanw

2017-08-30 17:02:59

@dymaxion your

enoss

2017-08-30 17:03:19

I should clearly note that when I said "you" I did not mean steve. I meant ICANN

dymaxion

2017-08-30 17:03:20

takes notes

dymaxion

2017-08-30 17:04:03

@hermanw I'll need to do a bit more digging before I'm really comfortable doing that, but yeah, good call. (That's why I didn't have healthcare on there until recently, despite having a few clients over there)

evangreer

2017-08-30 17:04:40

@evangreer has joined the channel

hermanw

2017-08-30 17:06:00

@christophermitchell http://www.businessinsider.com/pantheon-macroeconomics-soft-brexit-2017-8

6 reasons why it is 'more likely than ever' that Britain will try to stay in the EU single market
"When the chips are down, we still think that the path of least resistance for the government will be to agree a long transitional relationship in which the...

hermanw

2017-08-30 17:24:14

https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2016/05/hyperloop-company-exclusively-licensed-passive-magnetic-levitation-system/

Hyperloop company “exclusively licensed” passive magnetic levitation system
HTT's magnet-and-coil setup was developed at Lawrence Livermore Labs in the '90s.

hermanw

2017-08-30 17:25:15

Passive magnetic levitation

shuli

2017-08-30 17:26:05

http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674363366

Grooming, Gossip, and the Evolution of Language — Robin Dunbar | Harvard University Press
What Robin Dunbar suggests -- and his research, whether in the realm of primatology or in that of gossip, confirms -- is that humans developed language to serve the purpose that grooming served, but far more efficiently. From the nit-picking of chimpanzees to our chats at coffee break, from neuroscience to paleoanthropology, Grooming, Gossip, and the Evolution of Language offers a provocative view of what makes us human.

dsearls

2017-08-30 17:31:18

Lithium mines I shot in Nevada: https://www.flickr.com/photos/docsearls/albums/72157624562767729

dsearls

2017-08-30 17:31:28

Not sure about the working conditions, though.

hermanw

2017-08-30 17:32:10

We did Hyperloop studies for North Western Europe: massive sprawl of people going to live in area's that are open and green, but close to the network. Like we saw with the TGV. Very positive results.

jamesvasile

2017-08-30 17:36:56

This is neat. A map of commute times across the US in line with Jesse's claim: https://project.wnyc.org/commute-times-us/embed.html#4.00/40.81/-73.96

Commute Times in Your Area | WNYC

karen

2017-08-30 17:48:19

@karen has joined the channel

desiree

2017-08-30 17:49:37

@desiree has joined the channel

dan

2017-08-30 19:24:30

@dan uploaded a file:

Thank You David!

dan

2017-08-30 19:31:22

@dan uploaded a file:

Wedding or Conference?

None

2017-08-30 20:00:15

@jerrym commented on @dan’s file : this is where we marry the perpetually open internet, right? so it is a marriage of sorts...

sumanah

2017-08-30 20:23:17

@sumanah has joined the channel

jerrym

2017-08-30 20:35:48

recommending the book Amsterdam, http://www.amazon.com/Amsterdam-History-Worlds-Most-Liberal/dp/0307743756/

christophermitchell

2017-08-30 20:54:19

Term infrastructure might be new, but historically it wasn't ignore...it was called public works. But the idea of "public" has declined in popularity and was abandoned by most.

christophermitchell

2017-08-30 21:25:18

http://www.governing.com/columns/eco-engines/gov-the-word-infrastructure.html

Why the Word ‘Infrastructure’ Replaced 'Public Works'
Not that long ago, we hardly ever used or even knew the term. What changed?

jerrym

2017-08-30 21:54:33

Woody Guthrie, Old Man Trump (1952): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jANuVKeYezs

Woody Guthrie -- I Ain't Got No Home/Old Man Trump by the Missin' Cousins

dymaxion

2017-08-30 23:12:35

FCC statement on Ajit Pai and net neutrality: https://ecfsapi.fcc.gov/file/DOC-578d579d1f000000-A.pdf

dymaxion

2017-08-30 23:13:51

@dymaxion uploaded a file: DOC-578d579d1f000000-A.pdf and commented: Link will likely break soon; here's the contents.

dymaxion

2017-08-30 23:15:17

(obviously fake, but funny)

dan

2017-08-31 00:23:29

@dan uploaded a file:

Pontificating Pepper at BigHook

dsearls

2017-08-31 07:07:46

I’ve added a bit more to my post on infrastructure, which I’ll talk about sometime today: http://blogs.harvard.edu/doc/2017/08/30/infrastructure/

Some new ways to look at infrastructure
Nothing challenges our understanding of infrastructure better than a crisis, and we have a big one now in Houston. We do with every giant storm, of course. New York is still recovering from Sandy a…

maljay

2017-08-31 07:10:03

On a much more banal level, charger for iPhone SE (or adapter for British plug to American), anyone? I seem to have brought the wrong set. Thanks.

dan

2017-08-31 07:25:40

http://p.nytimes.com/email/re?location=pMJKdIFVI6og8d+ofNlzG0oMJAr+cJSY&user_id=46d3e3a7d3525bfdddc0cc6771dcf00f&email_type=eta&task_id=1504139354241993&regi_id=0

They Have a Say Over the Subways, From Hundreds of Miles Away
Since the 1960s, control of New York City’s subways has been in the hands of state lawmakers, many of whom live far from the city and rarely ride the trains themselves.

dan

2017-08-31 07:26:19

Governance and the NYC Subway

wseltzer

2017-08-31 07:28:21

@maljay I'll bring a generic adapter to breakfast

maljay

2017-08-31 07:38:23

Thanks!

brewsterkahle

2017-08-31 08:34:20

roy williams and the human hands

brewsterkahle

2017-08-31 08:34:28

brain cloud (band name)

hermanw

2017-08-31 08:35:02

@maljay have an adapter too

davidw

2017-08-31 08:41:20

www.roywilliamsplaysmusic.com/

davidw

2017-08-31 08:41:57

Not this Brain Cloud: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/brain_cloud
brain cloud (countable and uncountable, plural brain clouds). (informal) The temporary inability to think properly, or to remember something [quotations ▽].

davidw

2017-08-31 08:42:09

But this one: https://www.braincloudmusic.com/

jerrym

2017-08-31 08:43:53

Archive priorities:

jerrym

2017-08-31 08:44:00

1) employ end-to-end encryption

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 08:44:08

https://appear.in

appear.in
Video conversations with up to 8 people for free - no login, no downloads. Create a video room. Share the link. Appear together. Try it now at https://appear.in

jerrym

2017-08-31 08:44:10

2) promote the decentralized web, harder

hermanw

2017-08-31 08:44:38

What were the other 2 tools he mentioned?

jerrym

2017-08-31 08:44:41

3) get the Archive out of the country

wseltzer

2017-08-31 08:45:01

https://zoom.us/

Video Conferencing, Web Conferencing, Webinars, Screen Sharing
Zoom makes video and web conferencing frictionless. Founded in 2011, Zoom is the leader in modern enterprise video communications, with a secure, easy platform for video and audio conferencing, messaging, and webinars across mobile, desktop, and room systems. Zoom Rooms is the original software-based conference room solution for conference, huddle, and training rooms, as well as executive offices and classrooms. Zoom helps businesses and organizations around the world bring their teams together to get more done. Zoom is a private company headquartered in San Jose, CA.

davidw

2017-08-31 08:45:02

@hermanw zoom and signal

jerrym

2017-08-31 08:45:19

4) coordinate w Mozilla, EFF, others

wseltzer

2017-08-31 08:45:23

and signal, https://whispersystems.org/

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 08:45:29

I think when Brewster talks about a decentralized web, he literally means it - talking about www content being decentralized as opposed to re-decentralizing the physical links and paths of the Internet... ?

jerrym

2017-08-31 08:45:39

jurisdictional arbitrage

davidw

2017-08-31 08:45:47

jurisdictional arbitrage?

jerrym

2017-08-31 08:45:48

5) do our jobs better. we're a library

wseltzer

2017-08-31 08:46:20

jurisdictional arbitrage : being in multiple locations to play their rules off against one another

davidw

2017-08-31 08:46:23

Is the problem that the material isn’t on the Net or that people don’t care, don’t know how to find it, don’t know how to make sense of it?

brough

2017-08-31 08:48:01

Academic material is still behind pay walls if you don't have University affiliation.

jerrym

2017-08-31 08:48:02

treat TV like data, make it a more useful resource

jerrym

2017-08-31 08:48:14

bring all libraries digital

jerrym

2017-08-31 08:48:40

let people "borrow" digital books. yes.

jerrym

2017-08-31 08:49:10

what if all footnotes turned blue (became live links)?

jerrym

2017-08-31 08:49:29

provide context to what people are seeing online

jerrym

2017-08-31 08:49:36

what is this article? who are these people?

hermanw

2017-08-31 08:49:48

The library of the future as a basis of digital trust

davidw

2017-08-31 08:49:53

The issue with borrowing digital books has been that if it is borrowing for a limited time, which implies a technological infrastructure for enforcing the time limits. So far, that’s been Overdrive for most libraries, a profit-driven company. Many librarians have been pining for an open and open source infrastructure. Is Brewster building one? Or is there another solution.

davidw

2017-08-31 08:50:20

http://hypothes.is

Home
Annotate the web, with anyone, anywhere. We’re a nonprofit on a mission to bring an open conversation over the whole web. Use Hypothesis right now to hold discussions, read socially, organize your research, and take personal notes. Get Started or see how it works. See

jerrym

2017-08-31 08:50:22

Hypothes.is

davidw

2017-08-31 08:51:20

Context collapse is a concept used by academics writing about the effects of social media and the contexts they give rise to. The term refers to the audiences possible online as opposed to limited groups we normally interact with in face-to-face interactions.Jun 18, 2017

dangillmor

2017-08-31 08:52:06

Context collapse: http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2013/12/08/coining-context-collapse.html

sumanah

2017-08-31 08:52:21

http://www.librarysimplified.org/ is a project backed by NYPL to make it wayyyyy easier to lend and borrow ebooks

rmohan

2017-08-31 08:52:24

http://mediatedcultures.net/youtube/context-collapse/

Context Collapse
After watching my presentation on YouTube, several people have asked me for a specific definition of context collapse. Here is an excerpt taken from th

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 08:54:21

Seriously, what @sumanah said

sumanah

2017-08-31 08:54:27

You might also want to check out https://www.crummy.com/writing/speaking/2015-RESTFest/ "The Enterprise Media Distribution Platform At The End Of This Book"

farber

2017-08-31 08:54:32

@farber has joined the channel

wseltzer

2017-08-31 08:55:36

https://openlibrary.org/

sumanah

2017-08-31 08:55:47

Code: https://github.com/NYPL-Simplified including iOS and Android apps, a circulation manager, a metadata wrangler, etc

The New York Public Library
GitHub is where people build software. More than 23 million people use GitHub to discover, fork, and contribute to over 65 million projects.

rickw

2017-08-31 08:56:01

@rickw has joined the channel

maljay

2017-08-31 08:56:20

I think it's also linked to what Helen Nissenbaum calls "contextual integrity" - where certain trade-offs made around data and personal privacy within a certain context are violated by moving data outside of that context. Seeing privacy harms as a trangression of boundaries that have been (implicitly or explicitly) agreed by all parties. She uses it in the context of data and privacy, but I find it a helpful frame for other sorts of norms and behaviour that are consented to within a category, group or class.

sumanah

2017-08-31 08:57:22

(SimplyE is the app for Android and iOS http://www.librarysimplified.org/get-involved.html - a free download that also gives you an easy way to browse and download Project Gutenberg books, to keep)

jerrym

2017-08-31 08:57:38

when do you like hearing the question: "Is there a lawyer in the house?"?

maljay

2017-08-31 08:58:19

And you go "How many would you like?"

brewsterkahle

2017-08-31 08:58:57

https://openlibrary.org to try borrowing a book

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 08:59:03

(he isn't running for President, people!)

brewsterkahle

2017-08-31 08:59:53

https://archive.org/details/delawarecountydistrictlibrary is an example of a library leveraging our collection (see the left side for which books are available vs waitlist).

Delaware County District Library (Ohio) : Free Texts : Download & Streaming : Internet Archive
The Delaware County District Library (DCDL) and its branches are vibrant centers of activity for residents and visitors in Delaware County. DCDL provides an inviting environment that encourages reading, learning, community discussion, and supports lifelong discovery. We are proud to be recognized...

hermanw

2017-08-31 09:02:24

A prime example of this view on Trump is on twitter @ThomasWictor

maljay

2017-08-31 09:07:37

"denial of discourse attack"

davidw

2017-08-31 09:09:55

Arpaio’s pardon: “A message from our past”

davidw

2017-08-31 09:10:59

https://joydegruy.com/resources-2/post-traumatic-slave-syndrome/

Post Traumatic Slave Syndrome - Theory and Book | Joy DeGruy
Dr. DeGruy's findings on the effects of slavery on present black community and black culture. Strengths gained in the past will help heal in the present.

sumanah

2017-08-31 09:18:14

@cherryb do you have opinions on "The Body Keeps the Score" by Bessel van der Kolk? I've heard from a friend who learned similar stuff from that book

hermanw

2017-08-31 09:18:21

http://traumaprevention.com/what-is-tre/

What is TRE® - Tension, Stress and Trauma Release : TRE®

shuli

2017-08-31 09:18:29

@sumanah I was just posting that same book! https://www.amazon.com/Body-Keeps-Score-Healing-Trauma/dp/0670785938

The Body Keeps the Score: Brain, Mind, and Body in the Healing of Trauma
A pioneering researcher and one of the world’s foremost experts on traumatic stress offers a bold new paradigm for healing Trauma is a fact of life. Veterans and their families deal with the painful aftermath of combat; one in five Americans has been molested; one in four grew up with ...

hermanw

2017-08-31 09:19:16

TRE exercises ; have done them myself, lead to the shaking release. Amazing, recommended !

desiree

2017-08-31 09:20:24

re: Trust and Infrastructure, and discourse battles and freedom of speech here’s the important controversy that Karl Popper points out https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/fa/06/c7/fa06c7b2337c789482619f36960b9dc8.jpg

sumanah

2017-08-31 09:22:54

@cayden Mutual aid!! Direct community provision of daycare, skills training, etc. -- learn from the Black Panthers (and, it must be said, Hamas)

cayden

2017-08-31 09:23:11

Here's Trauma Stewardship https://www.amazon.com/dp/B003BHM84K/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1

cherryb

2017-08-31 09:23:35

Waking the Tiger by Peter Levine is a great book to under human trauma - what causes it and how to start addressing it.

karen

2017-08-31 09:23:50

NYTimes op ed on Pepper's point https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/25/opinion/bannon-trump-polls-republican.html?_r=0

What if Steve Bannon Is Right?
The Democrats still in Trump’s camp are persuadable if the message is economic hope.

sumanah

2017-08-31 09:24:09

@cayden basically, I find it very exciting and hopeful to see, like, the Grange-style turn in certain 21st century orgs

cayden

2017-08-31 09:24:48

Yeah, I really think that we're going there in a lot of movement spaces. @sumanah

mrr

2017-08-31 09:25:02

@mrr uploaded a file:

Image uploaded from iOS

davidw

2017-08-31 09:25:55

So, Nazis marching through Skokie: a conscious intent to trigger PTSD among death camp survivors and their families. Nazis marching through C-ville: a conscious intent to trigger PTSD among PoC, LGBTQ, Muslims … Reframes my own first amendment absolutism.

wseltzer

2017-08-31 09:27:01

davidw, yes, yikes

dangillmor

2017-08-31 09:27:41

@davidw super-slippery slope

wseltzer

2017-08-31 09:28:25

and yet, how do we draw a different line that doesn't bite back

davidw

2017-08-31 09:29:17

From the NYT op-ed that Karen linked to:

It turns out that racial resentment was the strongest predictor of whether a voter would flip from supporting a thoughtful, intelligent Democrat to a boorish, mentally unstable Republican. When you say Black Lives Matter, these white voters hear Kill a Cop. When you say diversity in the workplace, they hear special privileges for minorities at the expense of whites.

sumanah

2017-08-31 09:29:19

https://tfreedmanconsulting.com/reports/a-pivotal-moment-developing-a-new-generation-of-technologists-for-the-public-interest/ "A Pivotal Moment: Developing a New Generation of Technologists for the Public Interest" -- http://www.harihareswara.net/sumana/2016/10/31/0 my blog post about this

http://software-carpentry.org/ is the workshop thing

A Pivotal Moment: Developing a New Generation of Technologists for the Public Interest - Freedman Consulting, LLC
(Freedman Consulting, LLC) This report, developed with support from the NetGain partnership, draws on 60 interviews with field experts, scholars, and policy leaders to identify opportunities to improve technology capacity and talent of those working on behalf of the public interest. The interventions described in the report may be implemented by a variety of stakeholders and target a diverse set of elements of public interest technology. Check out pivotal moment

Software Carpentry
Teaching researchers the foundational computing skills they need to get more done in less time

rickw

2017-08-31 09:31:03

Even first amendment fans carve out exceptions for speech intended to incite violence and destruction -- "yelling fire in the crowded movie theatre." Perhaps the incitement to trigger such internal PTSD-type violence within individuals and groups, per our conversation here, should be put in that same category?

davidw

2017-08-31 09:33:01

@dangillmor Yes, restricting “speech” is a slippery slope for sure. But so is everything. Literally everything.

davidw

2017-08-31 09:33:44

Besides, @dangillmor, what could go wrong? 😜

davidw

2017-08-31 09:34:02

I ❤ Boston in so many ways.

sumanah

2017-08-31 09:34:17

@sumanah uploaded a file: pivotalmoment.pdf and commented: "A Pivotal Moment: Developing a New Generation of Technologists for the Public Interest"

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 09:34:24

I suspect that a strong piece of the PTSD response also comes from the correct realization that the people who don't have to worry about PTSD issues mostly don't plan to correct the problems that cause the PTSD.

rickw

2017-08-31 09:35:32

Life is full of slippery slopes. The challenge is drawing principled lines, whether or not they are "correct" and endure.

hermanw

2017-08-31 09:35:56

lev.gonick

2017-08-31 09:37:25

More about the student interns analytical work leading to legal action against AT&T in Cleveland https://www.clevescene.com/scene-and-heard/archives/2017/08/25/cleveland-residents-take-legal-action-over-atandts-alleged-redlining

Cleveland Residents Take Legal Action Over AT&T's Alleged 'Redlining'
As promised, Florida-based attorney Daryl Parks has filed a lawsuit against AT&T over its history of rolling out infrastructure upgrades on an unequal basis across...

davidw

2017-08-31 09:38:13

@rickw: “The challenge is drawing fair, responsive lines that work to achieve values…” - FTFY 🙂

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 09:39:31

Non-rival goods, simply defined: http://wilcoxen.maxwell.insightworks.com/pages/130.html

maljay

2017-08-31 09:41:24

I've also found that very few groups are able to discuss trauma or abuse of any kind without the immediate phenomenon of "competitive victimhood" kicking in. It's often a gesture of empathy, of "I hear you because I've experienced something similar" or "I'm not black but....", but it can suck the air out of the room and diminish the stories of really horrific trauma. I'd love resources on managing that sort of discourse and good ways to check (our own) privilege.

hermanw

2017-08-31 09:44:14

Bounded rationality combined with decentralized decision making : market

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 09:44:39

No one tell Brett about ITIF

davidw

2017-08-31 09:45:27

Could someone tell me about ITIF?

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 09:45:44

Economists that oppose government being involved in infrastructure

davidw

2017-08-31 09:46:00

thanks, @christophermitchell

sumanah

2017-08-31 09:46:16

oh, hey, this is actually a group I can ask: given that it has become (to probably a majority of US businesses and residents) fairly important infrastructure, help me persuade myself that we should not nationalize Facebook

wseltzer

2017-08-31 09:46:20

"externalities"

hermanw

2017-08-31 09:47:01

Infrastructure generates network effects

hermanw

2017-08-31 09:47:57

Effects and value can hardy be captured by the investor in infrastructure, unless the investor is society

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 09:47:57

How much would you spend per KWH to have a light at night? A fridge in the summer? A helluva lot more than you do. It is deliberately priced low for societal benefit. This has been a HUGE fight over 100+ years because Wall Street correctly recognizes we would pay orders of magnitude more for electricity than we do.

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 09:48:03

@hermanw Infrastructure is almost always networked in some sense and standalone infrastructure is rare because it is worth so much less. I'd almost say network effects are the point of infrastructure.

hermanw

2017-08-31 09:48:21

@jamesvasile Yes

shuli

2017-08-31 09:49:10

Health care has a societal benefit as well but it’s not deliberately priced low.

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 09:49:16

Deep thinkers like to talk about whether the Internet is a utility or infrastructure... among the public, there is no doubt.

lev.gonick

2017-08-31 09:49:33

In general, ITIF and others have a 'carve out' view of "network infrastructure" in contrast many other kinds of infrastructure. Indeed, as Dan's talk last pointed out, even in our society of engineers, "we" do not consider network infrastructure the same as other infrastructure. I believe this is largely a case of American exceptionalism.

hermanw

2017-08-31 09:50:05

@christophermitchell this issue of pricing to cover costs instead of maximizing profit to owner infastructure is major. Monopoly graft

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 09:50:17

@shuli not in the US, but elsewhere it is deliberately priced lower for most. Someone has to pay the costs - and under Obamacare, idea was to massively transfer wealth from rich to poor to lower cost of health care.

wseltzer

2017-08-31 09:50:27

two intertwined effects here: externalities are benefits (or costs) that flow to others beyond the direct transaction; and unanticipated effects, that wouldn't be paid for even though they might benefit the transacting parties

davidw

2017-08-31 09:50:44

Infrastructure is a slippery slope.

dangillmor

2017-08-31 09:51:02

@sumanah Would like to see govt role re FB and Google be helping create conditions for more competition. If that fails, regulation is inevitable, which sucks only slightly less than their dominance growing and growing.

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 09:51:08

Infrastructure can fix the slippery slope. Shore that shit up!

rickw

2017-08-31 09:51:22

Should the Internet (whatever that is) itself be considered as a utility, or are we talking about access to the Internet (basic/broadband connectivity)?

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 09:51:38

@shull Health Care should be deliberately priced low and shoved into a non-profit-chasing mode. I don't think Brett's argument is that infrastructure naturally tends toward being priced low but rather that there are certain affects to treating things that way and we might want those affects. (But I admit I only slogged through part of his book)

hermanw

2017-08-31 09:52:08

@rickw The Internet itself.

maljay

2017-08-31 09:52:15

@davidw Most things are 🙂 As a wise man recently said.

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 09:52:46

@rickw I think the access is the utility.

dangillmor

2017-08-31 09:53:12

@rickw access to Internet in oligopoly is common carrier (hopefully not utility in the electricity sense)

dangillmor

2017-08-31 09:53:24

make that "should be" common carrier

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 09:53:31

"It's the destination, not the journey" -- an economist, probably.

wseltzer

2017-08-31 09:53:31

Brett: infrastructure is a pure or impure public good; it's a capital good;

wseltzer

2017-08-31 09:53:53

and an input into a wide variety of public activities

maljay

2017-08-31 09:54:12

Brett: infrastructure as derived demand

maljay

2017-08-31 09:54:30

Value at the ends, not just consumptive.

rickw

2017-08-31 09:54:34

@hermanw So then we need to define the Internet. I believe @dsearls and @davidw have been kicking that particular virtual can for years, with no satisfactory resolution. To which I say, "Amen."

hermanw

2017-08-31 09:54:49

@rickw Amen

rickw

2017-08-31 09:55:06

The Internet as slime mold is one particularly fascinating metaphor.

enoss

2017-08-31 09:55:32

ITIF's view on telecom IS american exceptionalism. what jim said about utilities and telecoms is a uniquely american view. the rest of the world treated them as infrastructure much more readily

rickw

2017-08-31 09:55:34

More process than thing

davidw

2017-08-31 09:56:10

I won’t speak for @dsearls, but what I’ve written about the Net is largely a reflection of what I’ve learned at BigHook. I.e., It’s you all’s fault.

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 09:56:16

"Moglen's Metaphorical Corollary to Faraday's Law says that if you wrap the Internet around every person on the planet and spin the planet, software flows in the network. It's an emergent property of connected human minds that they create things for one another's pleasure and to conquer their uneasy sense of being too alone." https://everything2.com/title/Moglen%2527s+Metaphorical+Corollary+to+Faraday%2527s+Law

Moglen's Metaphorical Corollary to Faraday's Law - Everything2.com
A "law" formulated by Columbia University professor and general counsel for the FSF Eben Moglen in his famous essay: Anarchism Triumphant: Fre...

sumanah

2017-08-31 09:56:23

A question I will store here and then re-ask in the Q&A at the beginning of the next session: One reason we in the US have trouble developing stakeholder consensus & voter approval for infrastructure spending is that we are such a heterogeneous country, on many axes (rural/urban, economic inequality, & ethnicity among them) that many blocs do not conceive of some infrastructure projects as benefiting them, and thus do not want to fund those projects. (Healthcare and mass transit come to mind.) There are longterm political projects to change that landscape - in the short term how do we get around this barrier to fund infrastructure maintenance & investment?

hermanw

2017-08-31 09:56:31

@rickw yes, the real core are agreements and protocols, substantiated in instances

enoss

2017-08-31 09:57:01

but the ITIF has a basis for their view as, given that it was (heavily subsidized but still private) private capital, any public involvement touches the third rail of the king taking the hard earned goods of the poor individual

enoss

2017-08-31 09:57:15

this also underlies the weird relationship americans have with tax

rickw

2017-08-31 09:57:45

The Internet is a temporarily instantiated agreement. Try regulating that.

hermanw

2017-08-31 09:58:23

many agreements are regulated

hermanw

2017-08-31 09:58:38

contract law, for instance

wseltzer

2017-08-31 09:58:42

I'm waiting for the library to get this book for me: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/15/books/review/democracy-in-chains-nancy-maclean.html

How the Radical Right Played the Long Game and Won
In “Democracy in Chains,” Nancy MacLean digs into the work of the economist James McGill Buchanan, who paved the way for our current political moment.

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 09:59:06

Is one of the problems with infrastructure that the constituencies are too broad?

maljay

2017-08-31 09:59:14

Asking as a foreigner: how much of the American exceptionalism, or the core of Sumana's Q above about people not wanting to fund things they don't benefit from, is about discomfort about anything that seems socialist or welfare state-like?

rickw

2017-08-31 09:59:19

But billions of simultaneous global non-formal agreements, made and extended and broken every moment?

dangillmor

2017-08-31 09:59:58

@wseltzer Several (truly) conservative friends say the book depicts Buchanan unfairly. It's well worth reading, however (and I agree with its main points entirely).

lev.gonick

2017-08-31 10:00:02

@enoss American exceptionalism in the Net is also a high risk wager. China invests more than Europe and the USA infrastructure together, including 21st century infrastructure. Add to that China's intentional willingness to invest in infrastructure around the world from sports stadiums in South America, railways in Kenya, network switches in Cuba, and owning 28% of our debt.... is the political economy of infrastructure at play on a global basis.

davidw

2017-08-31 10:00:06

But, @rickw , aren’t some of the structures on top of those shifting sands themselves rather permanent, e.g., FB, Google, Doc’s home page, etc.? Can’t those be regulatedd?

steve

2017-08-31 10:01:09

@steve has joined the channel

enoss

2017-08-31 10:01:10

@lev.gonick that is because their government is way more efficient and representative than the US (there I said it). they added more FTTH connections to a home last year than there are homes in the US!

enoss

2017-08-31 10:01:35

and what they have done with grid and other infrastructure tech is remarkable

dangillmor

2017-08-31 10:01:41

@lev.gonick dictatorship has its advantages in getting things done.

enoss

2017-08-31 10:01:49

they can afford to be long term. they are not up for election in two years

rickw

2017-08-31 10:02:15

Perhaps, @davidw. But that would be regulating more obvious and visible components of the Internet, rather than "the Internet" itself. I just wanted to parse that concept further.

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 10:02:29

@enoss but talk to Benoit Felten about the shitty connectivity they have over their FTTH (China). I was a bit surprised.

enoss

2017-08-31 10:02:31

@dangillmor just ask donald!

enoss

2017-08-31 10:02:45

@christophermitchell a matter of time

enoss

2017-08-31 10:03:01

and the disadvantages of watching packets does instill overhead 🙂

dangillmor

2017-08-31 10:04:01

more than watching...

wseltzer

2017-08-31 10:04:09

@dangillmor thanks, and I've seen some of the criticisms too. I'm interested in the various places from which we come to distrust democratic government as a means of collective action.

lev.gonick

2017-08-31 10:04:12

@dangillmor The dictatorship card is too easy. We spend $2.5 trillion on global public infrastructure. To keep up with growth, we, as a planet need on the order $3.5 trillion in infrastructure investment. China is intentionally designing a structural power framework for capturing the gap in global infrastructure with "made in China" to support its massive labor market and lumpy domestic needs.

evangreer

2017-08-31 10:05:10

Sorry to be missing the discussion right now, folks. Woke up with a bad sore throat and a little fever. Resting a bit and considering heading to the urgent care in falmouth to rule out Strep, as I had it twice this summer

hermanw

2017-08-31 10:05:43

Is the strategy of Amazon not based on building a massive infrastructure first at zero profit, to drive out competitors, and create a barrier for entry? And than monetize it?

dangillmor

2017-08-31 10:05:45

@evangreer good idea to check it out...

lev.gonick

2017-08-31 10:05:50

@evangreer I was at Urgent Care yesterday in Falmouth. Efficient and considerate

dangillmor

2017-08-31 10:05:56

@evangreer and feel better soon!

enoss

2017-08-31 10:06:39

@hermanw no. it is to build scale, not drive out competitors. look at cloud. tons of huge competitors (IBM. M$, many many more)

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 10:06:43

@wseltzer Government and governance bodies have heightened fairness concerns and anti-corruption measures that are both necessary and inefficient. That makes them look wildly expensive and creates resentment. It makes gov look incompetent to people that aren't seeing the process. And people who do see the sausage get made are mostly disgusted too. It's a weird, hard problem.

cayden

2017-08-31 10:07:21

@evangreer fingers crossed for you, and feel better soon!

enoss

2017-08-31 10:07:25

@hermanw that approach recognizes that most Internet businesses are scale businesses. and unleveraged scalability is simply inefficient

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 10:07:30

@evangreer Hope you feel better!

hermanw

2017-08-31 10:07:33

@enoss I wasnt considering AWS, that seems to be a bypoduct

evangreer

2017-08-31 10:07:44

thanks all

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 10:32:26

@christophermitchell uploaded a file:

Sumana!">https://bighook.slack.com/files/U28U2N31D/F6VQZSZJL/2017-08-30__bighook__0048m-edit.jpg|Sumana!

maljay

2017-08-31 10:35:10

@evangreer Feel better, yell if you need anything.

cayden

2017-08-31 10:37:07

@christophermitchell moar live BH memes! 👍:skin-tone-4:

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 10:43:34

Monopolies will always find good reasons why it isn't fair that they have to compete

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 10:44:32

Monopolies are made by exploiting disruption opportunities, so they are genetically wary of being deposed by those same forces.

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 10:45:29

Also, businesses have inertia. They can't just turn around and be good at competition. (meaning monopolies, not all biz is monopoly of course)

davidw

2017-08-31 10:45:34

Monopolies feel threatened by the possible loss of their privilege. Hmm.

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 10:47:25

@christophermitchell uploaded a file:

NET NEUTRALITY AGAIN???

wseltzer

2017-08-31 10:48:00

"intelligence-enabled control" -- what work is "intelligence-enabled doing?

dsearls

2017-08-31 10:48:02

“Net Neutrality is about regulation of intelligence enabled control.” — Brett

dymaxion

2017-08-31 10:48:52

@wseltzer It's a way of saying "data-driven automation" that lets the speaker pretend that it's not about privacy violations.

dymaxion

2017-08-31 10:49:34

The biggest thing about this conversation that really weirds me out is the seeming inability to imagine new infrastructure categories being brought about by anything but for-profit companies.

davidw

2017-08-31 10:49:44

Does selling fast lanes count as intelligence-enabled?

wseltzer

2017-08-31 10:50:06

but is control any better if it's dumb?

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 10:50:18

@davidw Willingness and ability to pay are information, according to economists.

dymaxion

2017-08-31 10:51:02

@wseltzer Optimizing a control system requires a closed loop. They want to optimize value extraction from the captive audience, so they need a closed loop.

rickw

2017-08-31 10:52:29

Some would say that human control is "dumb," and hence inherently imperfect. Smart control can lead to what @slackrox21 said yesterday: perfect information (with accompanying plusses and minuses) and no privacy.

hermanw

2017-08-31 10:54:07

Smart control assumes that once you know "all data", you make better decisions. Hubris, overlooking the structure of data, meaning, value, and the limits of digital data collection.

jlivingood

2017-08-31 10:54:11

Interesting that the Silicon Valley gender problem took this long to come up (@enoss mentioned Uber and Google).

wseltzer

2017-08-31 10:54:23

my earlier comment was in reference to public choice theory -- that those with the greatest economic impact from a particular rule will spend up to their last dollar to twist it in their favor

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 10:54:45

@jlivingood FWIW, it's come up in smaller conversations a few times that I've observed.

hermanw

2017-08-31 10:56:06

Bounded rationality of individuals

rickw

2017-08-31 10:56:19

@hermanw : Agreed. Too many tech optimists underestimate the necessary context and inherent limitations of "data."

hermanw

2017-08-31 10:56:29

@rickw

desiree

2017-08-31 10:56:32

re: @enoss there’s not enough regulation - good read is https://www.theguardian.com/books/2017/apr/17/move-fast-and-break-things-review-google-facebook-amazon-exposed

Move Fast and Break Things review – Google, Facebook and Amazon exposed
Jonathan Taplin reveals how three companies subverted the internet’s utopian ideals

davidi

2017-08-31 10:56:33

sociological "herd immunity"

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 10:56:49

I think a lot of the data stuff Trullio does is actually geared towards surfacing neighbor welfare as a proxy for whether a hood is a good place to live.

dsearls

2017-08-31 10:56:52

Notes I don’t wanna lose from what Brett’s been saying… Infrastructure is a pure public good…
general purpose, shareable…
partially non-rival…
congestible, but not congested…
inseparable from governance…
an input… derived from what we can do with it…
creates private and other public goods…

davidw

2017-08-31 10:56:55

Just an add-on point to @sumanah’s: heterogeneity only explains the failure to pay for infrastructure that one does not oneself use if the culture views itself as broken by heterogeneity.

jlivingood

2017-08-31 10:57:10

@jamesvasile Seems more pronounced on the West coast but certainly pervasive in the tech field. It's a shame that so many smart people that create useful things and enjoy resultant financial benefits can also be such crappy people.

davidi

2017-08-31 10:57:18

i.e., all the benefits of living in a community of more educated, wealthier, healthier neighbors

dsearls

2017-08-31 10:57:29

I think Elliot is speaking as a private builder of pure public goods.

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 10:58:38

@jlivingood Have we ever had a booming industrial sector that didn't mythologize meritocracy as a way of self-justifying privilege and perpetuating exploitation on which its wealth is built?

lev.gonick

2017-08-31 10:58:42

@sumanah @dsearls I don't buy the assumption about heterogeneity being a unique American quality. I think the central issue is the dominant ideology of rejecting distribution of wealth as anti-American. Everything follows.

enoss

2017-08-31 10:59:53

lynn is right for natural monopolies, not for competitive markets

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 11:00:09

@jlivingood The tech bros didn't invent that culture. In NY, we mostly see it as Finance Bros. We're a big enough city that it doesn't dominate the culture. SF is small enough that tech kind of takes over.

enoss

2017-08-31 11:00:13

breaking up AT&T is fundamentally different than breaking up google

enoss

2017-08-31 11:00:45

think about how silly breaking up microsoft would have been through the lens of 2017

hermanw

2017-08-31 11:00:53

@rickw I love the embbed layer concept of data, on 1) Shannon level = syntax and semantics, 2) Boltzmann level = meaning, dependent on context shared between sender and recipient (so same data or lack of data can have multiple meanings dependent on sender/receiver-pair), and 3) Darwin level = value of the meaning, which is dependent on the person, can be different between sender and receiver. Net Neutrality is about Shannon level provider trying to capture value.

enoss

2017-08-31 11:01:11

and microsoft's power was >> google

davidw

2017-08-31 11:01:41

This is the Aaron Swartz moment for Larry Lessig

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 11:01:58

@davidw Care to explain that?

wseltzer

2017-08-31 11:02:23

break 'em up, even in 2017

jlivingood

2017-08-31 11:02:36

@christophermitchell Did I catch your point at the end correctly that regulation inevitably benefits the incumbents?

davidw

2017-08-31 11:02:37

Aaron convinced Larry that he won’t be able to advance his copyright project until and unless we get the money out of politics

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 11:02:52

NY has bond questions on the ballot quite often.

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 11:03:01

@davidw Thank you.

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 11:03:14

@jlivingood I think my point may be better presented as in response to monopoly, breaking the power up is preferable to trying to regulate it

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 11:03:26

I don't think it is inevitable but it seems that way sometimes

jlivingood

2017-08-31 11:03:31

Got it - thanks!

davidw

2017-08-31 11:04:09

Jerry’s on fire! On fire!

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 11:04:54

What are the social welfare arguments against breaking up a monopoly? We have a framework for asking (1) is it a monopoly and (2) is it restraining trade. But what's the big downside to pulling the trigger too early?

davidw

2017-08-31 11:05:05

@christophermitchell: How would you break up FB, for example? (I ask this as a genuine question.)

rickw

2017-08-31 11:05:07

@hermanw Yes, incumbents ISPS want to use control over Shannon level connectivity (OSI Layers 1/2) to capture Darwin level data value (OSI Layers 6/7).

enoss

2017-08-31 11:05:08

the human condition is to be short term

davidw

2017-08-31 11:05:38

…and preferably not nasty or brutish

cayden

2017-08-31 11:05:51

I don't know that that's necessarily the case - could we approach it as a hierarchy of needs type of issue?

hermanw

2017-08-31 11:06:12

Even in Europe politicians sell big infrastructure projects politically by underestimating willingly the costs, knowing that there will be cost overruns while the benefits will be vastly bigger than imagined. At least, the good decisions 🙂. Looking back many (2/3) of the projects nobody could do without now while they were heavily debated at the time.

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 11:06:22

@davidw - I don't know re: FB. I think there are solutions regarding Amazon but I am at a loss regarding FB. This isn't my primary area - looking for what Barry Lynn as said on it 😃

desiree

2017-08-31 11:06:23

@davidw @davidw - it would be easier to break up Google than FB. 🙂

dangillmor

2017-08-31 11:06:23

@rickw explain that in everyday language?

dsearls

2017-08-31 11:07:27

On Google and Facebook as temporary monopolies: http://blogs.harvard.edu/doc/2017/08/26/extraction-ends/ Pull quote: consider both Facebook and Google epiphenomenal. Large and all-powerful though they may be today, they are (like all tech companies, especially ones whose B2B customers and B2C consumers are different populations—commercial broadcasters, for example) shallow and temporary effects rather than deep and enduring causes. I say this as an inveterate participant in Silicon Valley who can name many long-gone companies that once occupied Google’s and Facebook’s locations there—and I am sure many more will occupy the same spaces in a fullness of time that will surely include at least one Next Big Thing that obsolesces advertising as we know it today online. Such as, for example, discovering that we don’t need advertising at all.

How the personal data extraction industry ends
Who Owns the Internet? — What Big Tech’s Monopoly Powers Mean for our Culture is Elizabeth Kolbert’s review in The New Yorker of several books, one of which I’ve read: Jonathan Taplin’s Move …

sumanah

2017-08-31 11:07:31

When I hear Elliot's question about the Faustian bargain, I am genuinely curious what the ethical and reputational norms among US tech industry CEOs are -- basically I don't think I know enough, ethnographically, about that crowd to see whether the Fowler and Pao whistleblowing will have had an effect on their behavior.

hermanw

2017-08-31 11:07:37

@dangillmor "I want to price a bit for messaging much higher than a bit for video"

davidw

2017-08-31 11:07:57

@dangillmor : I take it to mean that they want to use their control over the bits to capture the human-created value…i.e., everything we care about. But, @rickw …?

wseltzer

2017-08-31 11:08:05

Schumpeterian competition isn't enough. Temporary monopolies are still monopolies.

rickw

2017-08-31 11:08:39

@dangillmor : One analogy would be that the phone company would want a cut of the profit (value) made by a customer using the telephone (connectivity) to make a call to his/her stockbroker.

dymaxion

2017-08-31 11:09:28

It's nice to hear a room teetering on the brink of understanding why communism makes sense. 🙂

hermanw

2017-08-31 11:09:33

@dangillmor or and electric utility that is pricing KWh higher for Google because they make a lot of money

rickw

2017-08-31 11:10:00

Exactly. No one would accept that bargain in the circuit switched phone world, but some want to change that equation in the digital world.

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 11:10:08

@jamesvasile Regarding the concerns of breaking up too early or negative problems, I don't think it is possible to know. But we live in a country that was founded on an anti-monopoly tea revolt and structured by people who feared centralized power and corruption above most else.

davidi

2017-08-31 11:10:19

Kleptocracy. Why the social contract is broken.

enoss

2017-08-31 11:10:45

social change is always the slowest arc. think of fowler and pao as (loud public) points on a line. I can share many more points. the trick is to reward good behaviour by companies and punish bad behaviour by companies more explicitly.

dangillmor

2017-08-31 11:10:52

@rickw got it

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 11:10:58

@dymaxion I hear it differently. Discussion is how to make markets work and prevent centralized control.

dymaxion

2017-08-31 11:11:26

@christophermitchell Well, sure. That's why it's sadly only teetering.

enoss

2017-08-31 11:11:26

I think you are seeing what makes it appealing, not what makes it make sense 🙂

lev.gonick

2017-08-31 11:11:30

John Wells Kingdon is Professor Emeritus and was Acting Chair of Political Science at the University of Michigan. He is a graduate of Oberlin College and the University of Wisconsin-Madison

davidw

2017-08-31 11:11:44

I think, and hope, we’re beginning to see discussions about how we want to optimize our systems/infrastructure. Some of this is coming from the upcoming realization that we have to make decisions about what to optimize machine learning-based systems for. This I find to be a useful frame, for it brings to light that tech decisions require deciding among social goods, a process for which we are responsible.

dymaxion

2017-08-31 11:11:52

It's useful to remember here that the new deal was the rich in the US trying to avoid an organized working class murdering them in their beds.

davidi

2017-08-31 11:12:29

Unfortunately, the wrong people are poised to take advantage of the next crisis.

hermanw

2017-08-31 11:12:38

We actively encourage our children to visit countries where nothing that they take for granted is available.

dangillmor

2017-08-31 11:12:47

@hermanw pricing is moving that way, scarily -- as companies (including (reportedly) Amazon) charge higher prices to people they think will pay the higher prices for retail goods/services

dymaxion

2017-08-31 11:12:51

It was literally capital paying off the workers by trying to build incremental social change while not actually re-organizing society. Unfortunately, because it didn't reorganize the basic structures, it eventually failed.

hermanw

2017-08-31 11:13:34

@dangillmor indeed, blame the "hired gun economists", it is in my mind just maffia tactics

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 11:14:15

@dymaxion Can you point to evidence where radical reorganizing a society in those circumstances worked well?

dangillmor

2017-08-31 11:14:54

"affordable access to the infrastructure of the future"

enoss

2017-08-31 11:15:02

if henry wallace had not been replaced by harry truman in '44 that might not have been the case

dymaxion

2017-08-31 11:15:26

Oh, I'm not claiming it wouldn't have failed in other ways too. I don't think we can say simply one way or another. But we can talk about where this failure came from.

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 11:15:58

@dymaxion I tend not to trust dramatic change - I believe it often turns out to be destabalizing. So I made my peace with the New Deal.

davidw

2017-08-31 11:16:09

In a small town in western Mass., a muni project just failed to pass because primarily the older generation didn’t want to subsidize broadband for the community as a whole. As a result, we have Verizon providing 1.5mbps DSL for $70/month (with a land line).

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 11:16:19

I don't know what the word capitalism means

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 11:16:28

Some words no longer have shared definitions

dymaxion

2017-08-31 11:16:28

(I think that there are likely ways for it to have gone better, but I also think that fight is a distraction)

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 11:17:49

Oh right! For people not familiar - Great Barry Lynn book! http://www.barryclynn.com/?page_id=25

hermanw

2017-08-31 11:17:52

@dymaxion @christophermitchell http://stumblingandmumbling.typepad.com/ is a great read from a marxist economist

Stumbling and Mumbling
An extremist, not a fanatic

rickw

2017-08-31 11:18:51

Roberto M Unger is enlightening on revolutionizing markets and politics: http://www.robertounger.com/en/

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 11:20:29

Brett's essay on short sightedness: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=721025

Some Thoughts on Shortsightedness and Intergenerational Equity by Brett M. Frischmann :: SSRN
This essay was written for Loyola University Chicago Law Faculty Issue on Justice, published in the Loyola University Chicago Law Journal. The essay discusses

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 11:21:36

Regarding what Lev was just saying, there are interesting implications as Mexico has declined much China investment to be friend to US. But as Trump antagonizes... https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/05/mexicos-revenge/521451/

Mexico’s Revenge
By antagonizing the U.S.’s neighbor to the south, Donald Trump has made the classic bully’s error: He has underestimated his victim.

davidw

2017-08-31 11:22:12

http://www.newsweek.com/kenya-railway-china-madaraka-express-618357

What you should know about Kenya’s mega-railway, built with Chinese money
The railway is such a source of pride for Kenya’s president that he’s threatened to hang anyone who vandalizes it.

hmhgoldstone

2017-08-31 11:23:00

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/29/world/americas/western-liberal-democracy.html?mcubz=0&_r=0

How Stable Are Democracies? ‘Warning Signs Are Flashing Red’
New research tries to spot the collapse of liberal democracies before they happen, and it suggests that Western democracy may be seriously ill.

enoss

2017-08-31 11:23:08

if the point is that they are not doing it out of the goodness of their hearts then yes!

wseltzer

2017-08-31 11:23:38

https://www.amazon.com/Confessions-Economic-Hit-John-Perkins/dp/0452287081

dymaxion

2017-08-31 11:23:55

Framing the only way to fight forthcoming Chinese imperial hegemony as supporting continuing American imperial hegemony is odd.

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 11:23:56

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confessions_of_an_Economic_Hit_Man (fuck Amazon)

Confessions of an Economic Hit Man
Confessions of an Economic Hit Man is a partly autobiographical book written by John Perkins published in 2004. It provides Perkins' account of his career with engineering consulting firm Chas. T. Main in Boston. According to Perkins, his role at Main was to convince leaders of underdeveloped countries to accept substantial development loans for large construction and engineering projects that would primarily help the richest families and local elites, rather than the poor, while making sure that these projects were contracted to U.S. companies. Later these loans would give the U.S. political influence and access to natural resources for U.S. companies. He refers to this as an "economic hit man." Although he states that throughout his career he has always worked for private companies, and suggests a system of corporatocracy and greed, rather than a single conspiracy, he claims the involvement of the National Security Agency (NSA), with whom he had interviewed for a job before joining Main. According to the author, this interview effectively constituted an independent screening which led to his subsequent hiring as an economic hit man by Einar Greve, a vice president of the firm (and alleged NSA liaison).

hermanw

2017-08-31 11:24:00

China priorities have been defined just after WW2: 1. Feed everybody 2. Be independent of others 3. Control resources to achieve 1 and 2.

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 11:24:19

@enoss Did you directly participate in this decision? http://www.tucows.com/clarifying-the-daily-stormer-issue/

enoss

2017-08-31 11:24:30

I did

brewsterkahle

2017-08-31 11:24:49

https://www.bkconnection.com/books/title/a-game-as-old-as-empire

A Game As Old As Empire
Expose of mismanagement on World Bank projects and billions lost to corruption in the Third World.

pepper

2017-08-31 11:25:01

@pepper has joined the channel

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 11:25:04

@enoss It kicked off a lot of debate among my advocate friends. I wonder if it's worth talking about at this conference.

enoss

2017-08-31 11:25:08

@jamesvasile it happened while I was off the grid in the canadian north so I was grabbing packets through a straw and struggled

enoss

2017-08-31 11:25:21

happy to. or at lunch 🙂

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 11:25:25

@enoss 🙂

enoss

2017-08-31 11:26:50

worth noting @jamesvasile I did not think the language in that post was completely correct but I had to weigh it against correcting people from a great distance on an emotional issue that I couldn't manage

lev.gonick

2017-08-31 11:27:27

Structural Power is "Power that organizes and orchestrates the systemic interaction within and among societies, directing economic and political forces on the one hand and ideological forces that shape public ideas, values and beliefs on the other." We're loosing our structural power (the end of American hegemony) with historic implications.

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 11:28:36

Rights are a fiction we build to justify and shape value prioritization. People act like changing our conception of them over time is somehow antithetical to the central conceit of rights, but development of new rights must either continue or we need to dispose of the concept altogether.

enoss

2017-08-31 11:29:26

for provocation. the chinese government has done far (FAR) more for its people in the last twenty years than the US government has

sumanah

2017-08-31 11:29:53

@enoss sort of an Amartya Sen analysis?

maljay

2017-08-31 11:30:01

Here's a resource on Belt and Road from the Hong Kong Trade and Development Council: http://beltandroad.hktdc.com/

hmhgoldstone

2017-08-31 11:30:21

This is the book David referenced: https://www.amazon.com/Destined-War-America-Escape-Thucydidess/dp/0544935276

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 11:30:23

This is a fascinating thriller (that totally reinforces much of the awful gender power dynamics most of us are regularly annoyed by) that has some interesting thoughts about how China and US will be competing in the future... and how China is planning for it and we are helping them. http://www.simonandschuster.com/books/The-Ascendant/Drew-Chapman/9781476725895

The Ascendant
“Warfare goes digital in movie and TV writer Drew Chapman’s fast-moving debut, a high-stakes thriller that pits the online might of China against that...

davidw

2017-08-31 11:30:33

IMO rights are a useful tool for forcing equitable norms, although we no longer have consensus about the origin and source of rights.

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 11:30:35

@enoss Sometimes a chunk of management is restraining yourself from trying to perfect the efforts of people who work for you

wseltzer

2017-08-31 11:32:38

https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2017/06/new-book-evaluates-the-u-s-china-face-off/

Graham Allison’s new book evaluates the U.S.-China face-off
In a new book, the Harvard Kennedy School’s Graham Allison looks at how the power struggle between Athens and Sparta in classical Greece offers important insights into the looming complexities as China’s meteoric rise threatens to displace the U.S. as the dominant world power.

davidw

2017-08-31 11:33:38

The claim that one has a right to X used to be a statement about something considered to be “essential” about being human (with varying theories of essence). Now it is simply the claim that your government has an obligation to enforce some good or behavior you wish. That is a very useful frame as contexts collapse.

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 11:33:50

China has overbuilt in infrastructure in a bunch of ways. There are a bunch of reasons for this, but the effects of it will be awesome in every sense of the word.

jlivingood

2017-08-31 11:34:17

@pepper Is the construction of ghost cities in China partly a result of the inability of Chinese citizens to invest in anything outside of China? I've read that many Chinese invest primarily in real estate as a result (with some more recent stock market speculation) and that this may be fueling some of the boom.

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 11:34:48

@davidw Is there an emoji for exploding head in here? You just blew mine. I have been struggling around the edges of that for years

davidw

2017-08-31 11:35:09

💩 ?

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 11:35:22

@davidw my head is poo. Got it 😃

enoss

2017-08-31 11:35:30

capital is a great centralizer!

mrr

2017-08-31 11:35:55

💀💥

davidw

2017-08-31 11:36:29

Ok, poor choice of a jokey response, @christophermitchell . But, for example, the UN Declaration of Human Rights was intended precisely as a way of cutting across all cultures.

davidi

2017-08-31 11:36:34

Some infrastructure needs to be built in one big lump. Others don't. Some can be decentralized (electricity) late in its development. Some can't.

pepper

2017-08-31 11:37:21

The ghost cities were financed by government banks (not individuals) to create stimulus in response the 2008 financial crisis

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 11:37:59

@davidw So did the UN DHR lead to current expectation of gov providing a right?

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 11:38:01

@davidi It's probably true that, like other large ad-hoc undertakings, most infrastructure building can only be tackled at opportune moments. We have times when it is feasible/advantageous economically and politically. We're asking too much to make those moments a constant condition. Maybe we can make them more frequent, larger, or more easy to capitalize on, but we almost certainly can't make them a daily condition. I'm curious what kind of infrastructure doesn't get built in a lumpy way because I can't think of any off the top of my head.

mrr

2017-08-31 11:38:07

un·ob·tain·i·um
ˌənəbˈtānēəm/Submit
nouninformal
noun: unobtanium
a highly desirable material that is hypothetical, scientifically impossible, extremely rare, costly, or fictional, or has some of these properties in combination.
"what type of cabling are we talking about, steel, composite, unobtainium?"

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 11:38:29

@pepper Exactly right.

davidw

2017-08-31 11:38:42

@christophermitchell , you’re asking me a fact-based question??? Hahaha.

lev.gonick

2017-08-31 11:39:07

@pepper In 1986 I spent a year in Zimbabwe. The national pride was the opening of the new football (soccer) stadium to host the Africa Cup. Thirty years ago, the Chinese were building infrastructure in Africa. 7,000 Chinese workers .... Chinese technology ... Zimbabwean raw materials. Make no mistake, this is a long-term strategy to reposition China in a global context while we debate and find ourselves paralyzed both domestically and in the global context.

hermanw

2017-08-31 11:39:25

@dangillmor off-topic: blue green roof http://www.permavoid.co.uk/solutions/blue-green-roofs/

Blue-Green Roofs | Permavoid
» Blue-Green Roofs |

davidi

2017-08-31 11:39:34

Mesh networks - or the original internet - these are examples of structures built non-lumpy.

desiree

2017-08-31 11:39:36

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2606152/indias-biometric-id-project-is-back-on-track.html

India's biometric ID project is back on track
Critics are concerned that the biometric data may be misused

wseltzer

2017-08-31 11:39:42

"identity industrial complex"

enoss

2017-08-31 11:39:46

https://www.immihelp.com/nri/aadhaar-number.html

Aadhaar Number - Permnent ID number for India
Aadhaar Number - Permnent ID number for India

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 11:39:51

@lev.gonick I have been more focused on China buying arable land everywhere than the infrastructure investments. The fishing rights thing plays right into that

sumanah

2017-08-31 11:40:03

Aadhaar, or, "aaaaaaagggggghhhhdhaar" http://www.caravanmagazine.in/tag/aadhaar

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 11:40:27

Poverty is contagious.

davidw

2017-08-31 11:40:40

@christophermitchell , it has been used by dominant cultures to exert influence on smaller cultures to, for example, not be blatantly racist, and to provide some measure of equal rights to women. Cf. Hillary Clinton (remember her?) on women’s rights, and on Net access as a human right (which she at least edged very close to).

kennedyjp

2017-08-31 11:40:47

@kennedyjp has joined the channel

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 11:40:52

Regarding these algorithms, presumably most here are familiar with Cathy O'Neil. enjoyed this book. https://www.theguardian.com/books/2017/jul/05/weapons-math-destruction-big-data-cathy-o-neil

Weapons of Math Destruction by Cathy O’Neil review – trouble with algorithms
This powerful study, subtitled How Big Data Increases Inequality and Threatens Democracy, exposes the bias in predictive modelling

desiree

2017-08-31 11:41:00

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System

Social Credit System
The Social Credit System is a proposed Chinese government initiative for developing a national reputation system. It has been reported to be intended to assign a "social credit" rating to every citizen based on government data regarding their economic and social status. In addition, it is also meant to rate businesses operating on the Chinese market.
The Social Credit System is an example of China’s “top-level design” (顶层设计) approach. It is coordinated by the Central Leading Small Group for Comprehensively Deepening Reforms. According to the overall "Planning Outline for the Construction of a Social Credit System (2014-2020)" issued by the State Council, the Social Credit System will focus on four areas: "sincerity in government affairs" (政务诚信), "commercial sincerity" (商务诚信), "societal sincerity" (社会诚信), and "judicial credibility" (司法公信). Media coverage has thus far focused mostly on the rating of individual citizens (which falls under "societal sincerity"). However, the Chinese government‘s plans go beyond that and also include plans for credit scores for all businesses operating in China.
The Chinese government wants the basic structures of the Social Credit System to be in place by 2020. It is unclear whether the system will work as envisioned by then, but the Chinese government has fast-tracked the implementation of the Social Credit System, resulting in the publication of numerous policy documents and plans since the main plan was issued in 2014. If the Social Credit System is implemented as envisioned, it will constitute a new way of controlling both the behavior of individuals and of businesses.
As of July 2017, no comprehensive, nation-wide social credit system exists, and very little firm information is available about how this system might work in practice. There are, however, multiple pilots testing the system on a local level as well as in specific sectors of industry. Some reports have stated that the ratings may use information gathered from Chinese citizens' online behavior, but existing scoring systems run by private companies using such data (such as Sesame Credit) are still in an experimental phase.

susie

2017-08-31 11:41:11

U.S. companies are working on similar "social credit" concepts as well

jlivingood

2017-08-31 11:41:12

https://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2016/12/21/chinas-social-credit-system-turning-big-data-into-mass-surveillance/

China’s ‘Social Credit’ System: Turning Big Data Into Mass Surveillance
.

hermanw

2017-08-31 11:41:17

"identity industrial complex". East Germans : "capitalism is superior, look at the effiency of their private capital funded Stasi system..."

jlivingood

2017-08-31 11:41:34

"The new social-credit system may include “black marks for infractions such as fare cheating, jaywalking and violating family-planning rules,” "

hermanw

2017-08-31 11:42:01

Social credit level determines if you get a visum to travel abroad

shuli

2017-08-31 11:42:10

Black Mirror had an episode touching on this http://www.businessinsider.com/psychology-black-mirror-nosedive-social-media-2016-10

What psychology actually says about the tragically social-media obsessed society in 'Black Mirror'
A psychological principle called the "hedonic treadmill" is the real fuel that would, in theory, drive us toward this pathetic and debilitating future.

susie

2017-08-31 11:43:08

I'm writing a story on Affirm and other retail installment loan providers that are using their own opaque choice in metrics to determine credit-worthiness. They've rejected people for loans because of misdemeanor convictions.

lev.gonick

2017-08-31 11:43:11

@christophermitchell Most of Africa is challenged by their historic mono-economies, fishing, mining, forestry. Those were first decimated by colonialism. While the US used the green revolution and USAID investments in education and the like to build a coalition of interest in the American idea of democracy and making Africa open for American interest, China re-played the British, French, and Portugal model.

desiree

2017-08-31 11:44:16

India’s privacy supreme court ruling:
In a momentous judgment delivered in the case of K. S Puttaswamy (Retd.)
& Anr. v. Union of India & Ors. [Writ Petition (Civil) No. 494 of 2012]
today, the Supreme Court of India affirmed that citizens have a
fundamental right to privacy. The nine-judge Constitution bench
comprising Chief Justice of India (CJI) J.S Khehar, and Justices D.Y.
Chandrachud, J. Chelameshwar, S.A. Bobde, A. Nazeer, R.K. Agrawal, R.F.
Nariman, A.M. Sapre, and S.K. Kaul, held in a unanimous decision that
Right to Privacy is protected as an intrinsic part of Right to Life and
Personal Liberty under Article 21 of the Constitution and other freedoms
guaranteed under Part III of the Constitution

susie

2017-08-31 11:44:58

This Facebook patent scared the shit out of people a couple years ago -- http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=9100400.PN.&OS=PN/9100400&RS=PN/9100400 "In a fourth embodiment of the invention, the service provider is a lender. When an individual applies for a loan, the lender examines the credit ratings of members of the individual's social network who are connected to the individual through authorized nodes. If the average credit rating of these members is at least a minimum credit score, the lender continues to process the loan application. Otherwise, the loan application is rejected."

jlivingood

2017-08-31 11:46:41

@jlivingood uploaded a file:

2016.11.29 - China 1_0.JPG

davidw

2017-08-31 11:46:49

@susie This sounds like it would blatantly violate existing US regulations governing credit scores. Not that that would necessarily stop it.

enoss

2017-08-31 11:47:30

emergence when we make small scale adjustments in ourselves. lovely!

susie

2017-08-31 11:47:32

@davidw yes, I wrote this about it in 2015 https://psmag.com/environment/mo-friends-mo-problems-might-have-to-defriend-joey-with-the-jet-ski-bankruptcy

Facebook Wants to Redline Your Friends List
The company recently filed a patent on using social network data to influence lending decisions. God help us all.

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 11:48:18

Facebook ad to Democrats in late 2020: Your friends have started drinking heavily. Get great deals on hard liquor near you!

davidw

2017-08-31 11:48:44

I interviewed the chief technologist at FICO a few months ago and wrote about it in an article about machine learning, but your post, @susie, is 10x clearer and 100x funnier 🙂

lev.gonick

2017-08-31 11:48:56

@sumanah I spent 7 months in Zambia in 1986/87. The Indian ex-pat community is a very big and complicated part of the political economy of Lusaka, Kitwe, Ndola. The Indian business community is not separate from the colonial experience. In an important way, the Indian community is part of the deep contradictions of that country.

davidi

2017-08-31 11:48:56

Grace Lee Boggs

wseltzer

2017-08-31 11:49:26

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grace_Lee_Boggs

Grace Lee Boggs
Grace Lee Boggs (June 27, 1915 – October 5, 2015) was an American author, social activist, philosopher and feminist. She is known for her years of political collaboration with C. L. R. James and Raya Dunayevskaya in the 1940s and 1950s. She eventually went off in her own political direction in the 1960s with her husband of some forty years, James Boggs, until he died in 1993. By 1998, she had written four books, including an autobiography. In 2011, still active at the age of 95, she wrote a fifth book, The Next American Revolution: Sustainable Activism for the Twenty-First Century, with Scott Kurashige and published by the University of California Press.

cayden

2017-08-31 11:49:26

http://www.ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn=9780520272590

The Next American Revolution
A world dominated by America and driven by cheap oil, easy credit, and conspicuous consumption is unraveling before our eyes. In this powerful, deeply humanistic book, Grace Lee Boggs, a legendary figure in the struggle for justice in America, shrewdly assesses the current crisis--political, economical, and environmental--and shows how to create the radical social change we need to confront new realities.

susie

2017-08-31 11:50:14

@davidw :upside_down_face:

davidw

2017-08-31 11:50:20

@dangillmor : banning anonymity -> license to speak

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 11:50:57

Dan on Guifi Net

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 11:50:58

https://www.wired.com/2016/07/forget-comcast-heres-the-diy-approach-to-internet-access/

Forget Comcast. Here’s The DIY Approach to Internet Access.
Spanish engineer Ramon Roca got tired of waiting for telecom companies to wire his town — so he did it himself.

cayden

2017-08-31 11:51:02

Relatedly, I do recommend this gesture towards thinking about how change scales in ways that are not explicitly/empirically causal: https://www.akpress.org/emergentstrategy.html

davidi

2017-08-31 11:52:20

Guifi - ???

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 11:52:36

@davidi see link above

wseltzer

2017-08-31 11:53:01

re anonymity and licensing speech,, I've been trying to figure out how to reconcile the various private (and justified) responses to Daily Stormer -- dropping them from service provision -- with the problem that the entire Web infrastructure is privately owned.

hmhgoldstone

2017-08-31 11:53:08

Is this it? https://guifi.net/

hermanw

2017-08-31 11:53:13

yes

cayden

2017-08-31 11:53:20

well, the one-people-ness of China has also sometimes manifested as a genocidal project away from the metropole

davidi

2017-08-31 11:53:25

google tells all

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 11:53:26

It might be useful to stop talking about China as a monolithic thing. "The Chinese" is an obfuscating term.

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 11:54:47

OK, maybe we can also apply my above point to India too.

hermanw

2017-08-31 11:55:29

Or the USA

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 11:55:51

But not the Netherlands. Totally homogenous

hermanw

2017-08-31 11:56:08

Dont get me started 🙂

davidw

2017-08-31 11:56:13

Or anything. All sides of dialectical systems deserve attention.

sumanah

2017-08-31 11:56:17

I'm willing to believe "there is a successful political project to define a single Chinese identity and delete all others" but "they are a monolithic x" is something I will be very skeptical of

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 11:56:26

@hermanw We are a lot less susceptible to missing the diversity in America because we're here. All the talk we had of divisions here is an example of us not missing that diversity.

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 11:57:11

Speaking of decentralized electrical generation... Elliot's hands could power this room while he is talking. Pretty active.

dymaxion

2017-08-31 11:57:22

Are... are we really speaking approvingly about state fascism because it makes it easier to get the trains running on time?

desiree

2017-08-31 11:57:23

DNS infrastructure is privately owned too the US and some ccTLD cases

davidw

2017-08-31 11:57:38

The closer you examine anything, the more differences you see. But closeness isn’t the only valuable critical distance. I think.

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 11:57:53

@dymaxion Empty trains

mljones

2017-08-31 11:57:58

Should be reflective of the work that our claims about China work to enable and disable us to think about how infrastructure and democracy could potentially fit together

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 11:58:41

@christophermitchell uploaded a file:

Happened to notice...

cayden

2017-08-31 11:58:44

Say more @mljones

sumanah

2017-08-31 12:00:40

I need to read more about Kerala https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerala_model

Kerala model
The Kerala model of development, is the style of development that has been practised in the southern Indian state of Kerala.
This state has achieved improvements in material conditions of living, reflected in indicators of social development, comparable to those of many developed countries, even though the state's per capita income is low in comparison to them. Achievements such as low levels of infant mortality and population growth, and high levels of literacy and life expectancy, along with the factors responsible for such achievements have been considered characteristic results of the Kerala model.
More precisely, the Kerala model has been defined as:
A set of high material quality-of-life indicators coinciding with low per-capita incomes, both distributed across nearly the entire population of Kerala.
A set of wealth and resource redistribution programmes that have largely brought about the high material quality-of-life indicators.
High levels of political participation and activism among ordinary people along with substantial numbers of dedicated leaders at all levels. Kerala's mass activism and committed cadre were able to function within a largely democratic structure, which their activism has served to reinforce.

cayden

2017-08-31 12:02:06

or maybe lunch. @mljones 😁

enoss

2017-08-31 12:02:30

I should note that my positive comments about china are always (and pretty much only) in response to the general meme of them as evil empire/enemy. for me they point even more clearly to a post-westphalian world

mljones

2017-08-31 12:02:37

@cayden for starters: "China" in part serving to reinforce a sense that centralized models may be essential, or barring that, considerably superior in building infrastructure RATHER than prompting us to renew the thinking about how not to let left critiques of centralized infrastructure building be entirely captured by libertarianism, etc.

mljones

2017-08-31 12:04:37

@mljones uploaded a file:

in re post-westphalian

brough

2017-08-31 12:09:16

Interesting to note that until 2012 the top rulers in China were almost all engineers or scientists (8 of the top 9). Since 2012 this has relaxed a bit with two economists, some research fellows and a former journalist in the Politboro. It will be interesting to see if this shift has long term impacts...

brewsterkahle

2017-08-31 14:05:59

https://blogs.harvard.edu/doc/2017/08/30/infrastructure/

Some new ways to look at infrastructure
Nothing challenges our understanding of infrastructure better than a crisis, and we have a big one now in Houston. We do with every giant storm, of course. New York is still recovering from Sandy a…

lev.gonick

2017-08-31 14:07:16

For anyone interested in Cuba and FOS, see http://www.cubaconf.org/ in Havana, November 7th-9th, 2017

CubaConf 2017
Free Technologies Cuban Conference

jerrym

2017-08-31 14:08:54

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederic_Tudor (The Ice King)

Frederic Tudor
Frederic Tudor (September 4, 1783 – February 6, 1864) was an American businessman and merchant. Known as Boston's "Ice King", he was the founder of the Tudor Ice Company and a pioneer of the international ice trade in the early 19th century. He made a fortune shipping ice cut from New England ponds to ports in the Caribbean, Europe, and as far away as India.

davidw

2017-08-31 14:11:39

(In Doc’s post, he explains the actual attribution of the “we shape our tools…” quotation.)

hermanw

2017-08-31 14:12:09

@hermanw uploaded a file:

newspaper in train.jpeg

davidw

2017-08-31 14:12:45

That is a great riposte, @hermanw !

davidw

2017-08-31 14:13:25

Doc’s blog: https://blogs.harvard.edu/doc/

Doc Searls Weblog
Holding forth on stuff since 1998

davidw

2017-08-31 14:15:18

Dan Gillmor, We the Media: www.oreilly.com/wethemedia/

davidw

2017-08-31 14:20:02

Hugh McLeod (which I first heard as “human cloud”)

davidw

2017-08-31 14:20:23

https://www.gapingvoid.com/blog/

Employee Engagement and Change Management Blog
Learn more about Blog from Gapingvoid, the leaders in workplace culture consulting and making work more meaningful! <305-763-8503/>

davidw

2017-08-31 14:20:51

@davidw uploaded a file:

Pasted image at 2017-08-31, 2:20 PM

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 14:20:52

The red side would probably be willing to build it out if the left agreed to offset the spending by reductions in the social safety net. Conservatives aren't against infrastructure. They are politically resistant to infrastructure spending proposals.

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 14:21:24

@jamesvasile I think it depends on the type of infrastructure. They love building roads.

davidw

2017-08-31 14:21:36

Doc: “Define the universe and give three examples”

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 14:21:44

@christophermitchell Yes, that's fair to say.

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 14:22:22

The modern Republican party is the party of liberal tears. Little vision aside from antagonism.

hermanw

2017-08-31 14:23:40

I would like to see a Patreon for journalists

jerrym

2017-08-31 14:24:17

herman, why have a separate platform for journalists? why not just plant a flag there?

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 14:24:24

I am curious about non-US based people reaction to this question... has the Internet harmed journalism elsewhere outside of US?

jerrym

2017-08-31 14:24:28

already we have ProPublica, Spot.us and a few more

cayden

2017-08-31 14:24:29

I think a lot of people are on it; also, a lot of independent publications are starting to do partial paywalls (like my friends at mask magazine)

hermanw

2017-08-31 14:24:30

Hmm, why not

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 14:24:34

I get the sense the BBC is doing well?

hermanw

2017-08-31 14:24:56

Internet has hurt journalism hard over with us

susie

2017-08-31 14:24:58

Spot.us is dead. Patreon for journalists is really hard.

jerrym

2017-08-31 14:24:59

because then people would have to go to a new platform specifically to back journalism/ists. it wouldn't have the traffic

cayden

2017-08-31 14:25:35

I also wonder if Patreon for journalists might amplify the separate streams in some ways?

sumanah

2017-08-31 14:25:41

https://twitter.com/drethelin/status/902821289555095552 "You can write a tragedy in six words, that's pretty cool. I can write a dystopian future in one URL: Facebook.gov "

My friend runs the Asheville Blade which is an independent investigative online newspaper funded by Patreon http://ashevilleblade.com/

You can write a tragedy in six words, that's pretty cool. I can write a dystopian future in one URL: http://Facebook.gov

sumanah

2017-08-31 14:26:19

http://www.patreon.com/AvlBlade

The Asheville Blade is creating hard-hitting journalism | Patreon
Become a patron of The Asheville Blade today: Read 109 posts by The Asheville Blade and get access to exclusive content and experiences on the world’s largest membership platform for artists and creators.

susie

2017-08-31 14:26:59

@sumanah But $1500/month isn't enough.

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 14:27:30

David is DONE BEING HUMBLE!

susie

2017-08-31 14:27:31

Patreon showed me their books last year -- writers was their fastest growing category in contributors and patrons. But very, very few people are actually earning a sustainable amount of money.

hermanw

2017-08-31 14:28:02

The ad-driven business model online, and the catering for tribalism/bubble content, powers cynical business models like Breitbart, or GeenStijl.nl in NL.

lev.gonick

2017-08-31 14:28:33

@christophermitchell In Australia https://www.lifehacker.com.au/2016/01/this-graph-shows-just-how-dead-printed-media-is/

This Graph Shows Just How Dead Print Media Is
The Australian media industry relies primarily on advertising dollars to stay afloat. This is bad news for traditional/print media platforms, which have...

dangillmor

2017-08-31 14:29:09

Power law seems to apply at Patreon, too -- a few do really well and most make coffee money.

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 14:29:31

Are young people more or less likely to be tribal? I think less than older people that tend to use Internet least. I thought @davidw said there are hard stats on this? At least to the extent polarization is a proxy for tribalism

hermanw

2017-08-31 14:29:35

I love what Sleeping Gaints are doing in pressuring companies to blacklist certain sites for their ads

dangillmor

2017-08-31 14:29:55

@cayden journalists are learning to develop multiple revenue streams -- no choice in most cases.

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 14:30:16

@lev.gonick Sure - but curious more on qualitative impact on reporting

hermanw

2017-08-31 14:30:21

@dangillmor like De Correspondent in NL?

davidw

2017-08-31 14:30:38

The internet is a global space, but we are all local creatures.

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 14:30:46

When were we not tribal? When did people not live in bubbles? I don't remember those days.

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 14:30:58

I thought consolidation was taking a hard toll on reporting before the Internet began to change it. @dangillmor ?

cayden

2017-08-31 14:31:32

Oh, I meant in the sense that I'm likely to back a journalist who does critical work that might reinforce my worldview or share an ideological framework @dangillmor

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 14:32:53

@susie What does "sustainable" mean for patreon? Bigger monthly checks? More consistent income?

susie

2017-08-31 14:32:55

Yes @cayden. People choose to pay because they're passionate. Anecdotally, I do have two patrons who have told me they don't agree with most of my opinions but want to support my reporting and analysis anyway. But I think they're outliers.

lev.gonick

2017-08-31 14:33:16

https://global.oup.com/academic/product/the-death-of-expertise-9780190469412?cc=us&lang=en&

The Death of Expertise
People are now exposed to more information than ever before, provided both by technology and by increasing access to every level of education. These societal gains, however, have also helped fuel a surge in narcissistic and misguided intellectual egalitarianism that has crippled informed debates on any number of issues.

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 14:33:30

Heard several interviews with the Tom Nichols guy Pepper is talking about - doesn't take any responsibility for the many ways elites have tried to close the drawbridge behind them, frequently get major things wrong - see the number of pundits that paid a price for getting Iraq war totally wrong... but I didn't read the book yet

davidw

2017-08-31 14:33:35

@jamesvasile, Obviously, non-tribalism was a dominant American myth for a long time, since disspelled. (Did I misspell disspell?) My point was that the dominant thinking about the Net is that it has dramatically increased tribalism; I thought that Doc was saying that the Net was diminishing tribalism, but I apparently was misconstruing Doc.

susie

2017-08-31 14:34:11

@jamesvasile Money enough to live on, would be my definition. That's the dream.

davidw

2017-08-31 14:34:38

As Doc has said before, the Web is barely old enough to vote.

dangillmor

2017-08-31 14:34:49

@christophermitchell the monopoly/oligopoly (over advertising) era was something of a golden age for journalism. it also financialized the trade -- pushed it into the hands of Wall St. short-termers who insisted that the orgs they owned had to keep meeting higher targets, and one way was to cut the staff while raising the ad prices. the collapse was hastened by that attitude.

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 14:35:30

@dangillmor Do you have any sense of what the Internet would have done to reporting in absence of Wall Street?

hermanw

2017-08-31 14:35:47

@susie for musicians the magic number is something like a 1000 committed fans, each spending 50 dollar a year?

dangillmor

2017-08-31 14:35:50

@cayden the market for journalism verticals is pretty strong at this point, and what we used to call newsletters are doing ok in the right hands.

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 14:37:17

@susie It strikes me that without the income stream being reliable (and I don't know Pateron stats on this), you can have enough to live on but lack security. Has Pateron given you any indications of what that looks like for writers?

dangillmor

2017-08-31 14:37:30

@christophermitchell rich people mostly owned journalism before Wall St. -- family businesses that depended on whether the (usually) patriarch gave a shit about the community being served. we're heading back to that in some ways. See Bezos and others.

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 14:38:40

Opinions and analysis don't qualify as journalism to me. Not to denigrate that stuff, but I think it's different in kind.

davidw

2017-08-31 14:38:49

@christophermitchell is referring to a very recent data-based media study out of the Berkman Klein Center (with Yochai Benkler) that showed that polarization is far worse on the right than the left. This lends credence to the notion that it’s a result of right-wing media, e.g., Fox.

davidw

2017-08-31 14:39:13

http://news.wgbh.org/2017/03/15/politics-government/major-new-study-shows-political-polarization-mainly-right-wing

A Major New Study Shows That Political Polarization Is Mainly A Right-Wing Phenomenon
What's at issue here is not just asymmetrical polarization but asymmetrical news consumption. The left and the center avail themselves of real journalism, however flawed it may be, while the right gorges on what is essentially political propaganda.

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 14:39:16

Susie notes that facts are different from opinions about facts. ... I suspect this goes to the high number of Republicans that claim Obama was born in Kenya. Unclear how many of them believe that vs are just trying to create liberal tears.

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 14:39:41

You can't have opinions about facts, but our opinions seem to dictate which facts we credit.

davidw

2017-08-31 14:39:46

The more recent Benkler study: https://cyber.harvard.edu/publications/2017/08/mediacloud

dangillmor

2017-08-31 14:39:52

"1,000 True Fans" -- you can make a business on that, says Kevin Kelly. http://kk.org/thetechnium/1000-true-fans/

sumanah

2017-08-31 14:40:52

kind of grew up on Schickele Mix, a fantastic sort of mixed media educational art piece on public radio that taught her music appreciation

dymaxion

2017-08-31 14:41:06

@dangillmor Depends how much money those fans have.

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 14:41:19

For some reason I have long attributed that 1000 fans view to Doctorow. Thanks for the correction.

davidw

2017-08-31 14:41:24

@dangillmor, doesn’t the power law at Patreon suggest that Kevin K. may be wrong about this as the alternative to the broadcast economy?

susie

2017-08-31 14:42:09

@jamesvasile Patreon is certainly structured to be more sustainable than, say, Kickstarter. I'd have to go back and look at my notes for numbers but when I talked to them, writers was fastest growing but not the most lucrative -- that was games and comics.

dangillmor

2017-08-31 14:42:10

Peter Schickele is from my home town. He's as hilarious in person as on stage...

hmhgoldstone

2017-08-31 14:42:48

It seems to me that journalism is an infrastructure, and the paucity of paying journalism jobs is a classic symptom of Brett's missing demand signals.

susie

2017-08-31 14:42:52

1,000 true fans minus payment processing fees and self-employment taxes

dangillmor

2017-08-31 14:43:19

Kickstarter is by definition not a sustainable business model.

dangillmor

2017-08-31 14:43:54

@davidw I don't think so. It's one instance of one business model.

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 14:45:13

@hmhgoldstone Yes - infrastructure for democracy or open society.

davidw

2017-08-31 14:45:15

@hmhgoldstone, McLuhan’s idea of media was inspired by Harold Innis’ work on rivers, and he would have counted infrastructure as subsumed by media. I think he would have been comfortable also viewing media as fundamental infrastructure.

susie

2017-08-31 14:46:05

Patreon told me only half of "patrons" actually consider themselves "patrons" while the other half feel that they're paying for a good or service, and this causes some conflict. Kickstarter is more transparently transactional.

dangillmor

2017-08-31 14:46:12

@hermanw De Correspondent is a great operation.

mljones

2017-08-31 14:46:40

for a big revisionist argument on the standards arguments: http://arussell.org/open/

dangillmor

2017-08-31 14:48:07

@susie I wonder if the difference between patron and customer is all that great in the Patreon context...

davidw

2017-08-31 14:48:13

Blurb from “Open Standards and the Digital Age” that @mljones just referenced:

How did openness become a foundational value for the networks of the twenty-first century? Open Standards and the Digital Age answers this question through an interdisciplinary history of information networks that pays close attention to the politics of standardization. For much of the twentieth century, information networks such as the monopoly Bell System and the American military’s Arpanet were closed systems subject to centralized control. In the 1970s and 1980s, however, engineers in the United States and Europe experimented with design strategies to create new digital networks. In the process, they embraced discourses of “openness” to describe their ideological commitments to entrepreneurship, technological innovation, and participatory democracy. The rhetoric of openness has flourished – for example, in movements for open government, open source software, and open access publishing – but such rhetoric also obscures the ways the Internet and other “open” systems still depend heavily on hierarchical forms of control.

davidw

2017-08-31 14:49:39

(The book is $82.20 at Cambridge Press, which includes 20% discount. $17.20 on kindle)

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 14:49:55

@susie I just pledged to you on Patreon

susie

2017-08-31 14:50:24

@dangillmor I think it can be, depending on how a creator structures their ask. They said they get a fair number of angry emails from people who don't feel like they're getting what they pay for.

lev.gonick

2017-08-31 14:50:25

@davidw Innis' thesis of staple economies has fundamentally informed my own thinking about infrastructure outside the hegemony of the imperial 'center'. Although better known in the US around his communication work, his political economy insights on the integration of the world economy are, IMHO, even more compelling (these many years later)

dangillmor

2017-08-31 14:50:29

@davidw A book that costs $82.20 including a big discount...good grief.

dymaxion

2017-08-31 14:52:38

@susie That's one of the reasons why I've stayed with the per-piece model. The per-month model feels like it's a lot more risky there.

alixtrot

2017-08-31 14:54:41

has flattr gone live? set a monthly budget, flattr what you like, your budget is meted out to those you flattred

dymaxion

2017-08-31 14:55:00

flattr has been around for ages and ages, but it's never really gotten any traction.

dymaxion

2017-08-31 14:55:10

I like Peter, but he hasn't had that much luck.

sumanah

2017-08-31 14:55:23

the Brave browser model - anyone know how that is progressing?

cayden

2017-08-31 14:57:28

Another problem for me with crowdfunding is that it doesn't necessarily do anything to address things like wealth inequality. Most of the independent creators I know are being funded by people in, more or less, their own socioeconomic class; I struggle with this a lot regarding grassroots fundraising for 18MR.

wseltzer

2017-08-31 14:57:50

Citizens for Progressive Taxation, anyone?

dymaxion

2017-08-31 14:58:04

@cayden I'd say that it magnifies it, even

cayden

2017-08-31 14:58:15

Yeah, that's sort of where my thinking on this is going, @dymaxion

dangillmor

2017-08-31 14:58:45

@dangillmor uploaded a file: 10 Choices that shaped the Internet and commented: 10 Choices that shaped the Internet

dymaxion

2017-08-31 14:58:48

(having watched various friends managed to really change their lives through crowdfunding, but in a very specific kind of way)

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 14:58:51

Here's a pateron account at a sustainable level: https://www.patreon.com/chapotraphouse 81k a month

Chapo Trap House is creating Chapo Trap House Podcast | Patreon
Become a patron of Chapo Trap House today: Read 70 posts by Chapo Trap House and get access to exclusive content and experiences on the world’s largest membership platform for artists and creators.

lev.gonick

2017-08-31 15:00:18

@steve how about a 15 min update on Governance of Internet infrastructure?

dymaxion

2017-08-31 15:00:27

Speaking of fiber and Europe, anyone know what the Finnish market for small business connections on residential fiber pulls looks like? I'm curious to see if I can easily do better than 1g down, 100m up.

dymaxion

2017-08-31 15:00:27

(I'll go digging myself, but it occurred to me someone here might just know)

davidw

2017-08-31 15:04:02

OTOH, Amanda Palmer has 11,253 patrons and is making $39K per “thing.”

dangillmor

2017-08-31 15:04:17

I've been a @susie Patreon patron for a while. Recommended...

davidw

2017-08-31 15:04:22

OTOH, the Gregory Bros, who’s songification vids can get millions of views have under 500 patreon patrons, and make $1,600 a month … which isn’t nothing, but also isn’t a lot for a band to divvy up. https://www.patreon.com/gregorybrothers/posts

The Gregory Brothers are creating Songifications | Patreon
Become a patron of The Gregory Brothers today: Read 257 posts by The Gregory Brothers and get access to exclusive content and experiences on the world’s largest membership platform for artists and creators.

davidw

2017-08-31 15:07:38

“Through the first three quarters of its fiscal year, (Chattanooga) EPB Fiber also generated more than $111 million in telecom revenues, generating a $14.5 million net profit and paying enough back to the electric system to help pay for the power system’s smart grid.” http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/business/aroundregion/story/2017/may/02/epb-fiber-tops-over-90000-customerstelecom-se/425825/

EPB Fiber surpasses 90,000 customers
EPB last month topped 90,000 subscribers to its fiber optic system, nearly triple the number the utility originally projected it needed to break even when the fiber optics network launched in 2010.

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 15:08:10

@davidw Interesting. I have watched their videos and didn't know they had a Patreon. It might be a lack of promo. Or maybe they have a milllion casual fans but few "true" fans.

They get money from YouTube on a per "thing" basis, and I wonder how much of the market is artists using Pateron as one income stream among many. Comic strip writers, for example, also run ads and bundle comics into books. So maybe not much money to divvy, but a welcome addition.

Whatever the case, I look forward to future papers on this. I'm interested in seeing how this develops.

dymaxion

2017-08-31 15:08:38

@davidw Amanda is an example of exactly what I mean by Patreon exagerating income inequality. She can do that because she already has a platform and a fanbase and has both her and Neil's money to float between things and work at a different kind of scae.

evangreer

2017-08-31 15:08:39

Someone probably has a better / more recent source for this, but it's worth noting the history of state-level policies pushed by incumbants that make it a lot harder for this model to spread https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/qkvn4x/the-21-laws-states-use-to-crush-broadband-competition

The 21 Laws States Use to Crush Broadband Competition - Motherboard
President Obama says he's going to help cities ignore these laws that restrict them from building their own high-speed networks.

dangillmor

2017-08-31 15:08:47

@davidw but Amanda

brewsterkahle

2017-08-31 15:10:01

Our backhaul for community network in SF: 7,000 (I think) public housing units, + libraries + lots of others : https://monitor.archive.org/cacti/graph_view.php?action=tree&tree_id=6 about 500Mbit/sec peak (hopefully this does not need a password)

davidw

2017-08-31 15:11:31

Amanda did build the following that she then moved onto Patreon, but built it before Gaiman. I suspect — based on nothing — that she was able to succeed on Patreon because her live performances and her relentless interaction with her fans via social media created a sense of engagement among 11K true fans, whereas as the Gregory Bros, whose videos draw more views than Amanda’s do, don’t do nearly as much social interaction with fans.

brewsterkahle

2017-08-31 15:11:58

@brewsterkahle uploaded a file:

Screen Shot 2017-08-31 at 12.11.14 PM.png

Internet Archive experience

(Screen Shot 2017-08-31 at 12.11.14 PM.png)

dymaxion

2017-08-31 15:12:17

Amanda built the fanbase because she got a major label record contract back in the day.

enoss

2017-08-31 15:12:29

https://espnfivethirtyeight.files.wordpress.com/2017/07/broadband-map-01-desktop.png?w=2048&quality=90&strip=info

dymaxion

2017-08-31 15:13:31

Once you've got that you can leverage it, sure, if you've also got capital and if you're good at the social interaction. You need all three. Patreon wing build you a fanbase.

enoss

2017-08-31 15:14:14

you have to go 2/3 down as it is a fluffy gif

enoss

2017-08-31 15:14:15

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-worst-internet-in-america/

The Worst Internet In America
The beauty of Saguache County can be inconvenient, particularly in the 21st century.

lev.gonick

2017-08-31 15:14:16

Our (Cleveland's) dedicated network for connecting the unconnected combining fiber to the middlemile (10Gb/s) and mmWave to public housing, homeless shelters, and inner city schools (1 Gb/s). The fastest internet access in Cleveland is now at the Men's Homeless Shelter on Lakeside providing 800 Mb/sec to the pillow https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/why-dedicated-high-speed-broadband-network-connect-game-lev-gonick

davidw

2017-08-31 15:14:21

@dymaxion True. Dresden Dolls, and a solo contract that apparently did not work out well for her (as I recall). But she has maintained her base and moved it onto Patreon because of her social interaction with fans. I don’t see how her marrying Gaiman affected her ability to support herself or why she has succeeded on Patreon whether others do not.

dymaxion

2017-08-31 15:15:27

The contracts gave her the fanbase reach. Neil has helped financially at times -- not on net, but it's a) helped her with access to capital, and b) helped her consolidate her public profile.

dangillmor

2017-08-31 15:15:49

@davidw I'm convinced it's the social interaction with fans. I'm a subscriber and her constant emails & posts are remarkable.

jerrym

2017-08-31 15:15:53

@dymaxion @susie and I all have active Patreon pages. who else here does?

dymaxion

2017-08-31 15:17:05

@dangillmor That's a big part of it -- if you're not someone who is good at that kind of work, you're at a massive disadvantage. It's a larger part of the job than whatever the actual art is.

dymaxion

2017-08-31 15:17:16

@dangillmor But you have to have the network reach first.

davidw

2017-08-31 15:17:24

But I agree that Patreon generally requires one to have already built a mass base. I’m also interested in why some mass bases move on to Patreon and some do not. Hence my contrast of Amanda and Gregory Bros

evangreer

2017-08-31 15:17:38

IMO platforms like Patreon and Bandcamp dramatically lower institutional barriers for artists to make a living from their art. they're still coming into their own, but in the past so much was determined by those who already had social capital and power in the music industry (which was a pretty homogenous group of dudes, to be honest) deciding who would come up next. The Internet has disrupted that, and record sales / licensing as a primary revenue stream for artists, but it's created opportunities for so many other possible revenue / support streams

dangillmor

2017-08-31 15:18:21

Re Dewayne's comments this morning: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2017/08/31/remember-we-only-shoot-black-people-georgia-police-officer-told-a-woman-on-camera/

‘Remember, we only kill black people,’ Georgia police officer told a woman — on camera
"But you're not black,” a Cobb County police officer said. “Remember, we only kill black people. Yeah, we only kill black people, right?”

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 15:18:42

@evangreer I wonder what Chance the rapper's career would look like if he had to be on a label

davidw

2017-08-31 15:18:48

All of this challenges Kelly’s very optimisti 1,000 True Fans theory. It doesn’t sound that hard to get 1,000 fans, but it turns out than even having millions of fans won’t necessarily translate into a livable income from Patreon.

evangreer

2017-08-31 15:18:58

If you read Rolling Stone and Pitchfork now vs even 5years ago, we're seeing an incredibly more diverse (musically and in every other way) cohort making their way up in the world

dymaxion

2017-08-31 15:19:00

@davidw Sure. I think that youtube culture encourages folks to assume the content is free. Music culture -- and especially music culture 15-20 years ago, was much more understanding of the idea that things cost money

dymaxion

2017-08-31 15:19:26

Production costs have gotten way cheaper, but you make no money from selling music, and touring hasn't gotten that much cheaper

susie

2017-08-31 15:19:53

fwiw Patreon told me that of all their categories, musicians make the least

dymaxion

2017-08-31 15:20:07

Revenue is entirely selling access, basically

evangreer

2017-08-31 15:20:14

i agree that there is a serious cultural issue around valuing artists labor

evangreer

2017-08-31 15:20:26

but i see that shifting as well

evangreer

2017-08-31 15:20:33

and i'm not sure the internet is to blame

dymaxion

2017-08-31 15:20:37

A lot of artists on Patreon basically sell the opportunity to get closer to them -- that's what all the newsletters are, and the tours too.

dymaxion

2017-08-31 15:21:17

(it's one of the things I've really struggled with in pricing patreon rewards -- what do I actually "sell")

evangreer

2017-08-31 15:21:27

The "if it ain't cheap, it ain't punk" culture that I ashamedly helped spread as a young artist largely pre-dated YouTube culture

dymaxion

2017-08-31 15:21:53

@evangreer Sure, but you could also pay a month's rent on a 1,000-copy vinyl run.

dymaxion

2017-08-31 15:22:02

(like, for the whole band)

evangreer

2017-08-31 15:22:06

hah, got me there

susie

2017-08-31 15:22:40

@dymaxion That access question gets really tricky wrt journalism. Like why would I publish original reporting behind that tiny paywall if my real goal is disseminating information? And if I don't keep it behind the paywall, half the people paying will feel like they might as well not. So instead I publish more personal, behind the scenes things.

dymaxion

2017-08-31 15:22:50

Hell, longer -- my friend Alex in Berlin has a lot of stories about running out of cash and getting something out the door so they could make it through the winter.

susie

2017-08-31 15:23:10

@dymaxion Which I have mixed feelings about. I also wonder if this is gendered.

dymaxion

2017-08-31 15:23:30

yeah

dymaxion

2017-08-31 15:23:47

I use timed release -- everything goes public, but you can get it early if you pay

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 15:24:00

The point of Patreon isn't the exclusive content. Frankly, most of the exclusive content is worth the money but not the time. The point of Patreon is supporting the larger body of public work, and if we don't socialize it that way then I think we lose.

dymaxion

2017-08-31 15:24:07

yup

wseltzer

2017-08-31 15:24:10

FWIW, I found it fascinating

evangreer

2017-08-31 15:24:15

yeah that's where i was heading

dymaxion

2017-08-31 15:24:34

the early access is basically something to shape payments up a little bit -- I'm happy for every dollar, but it helps push some folks over the $10 line

evangreer

2017-08-31 15:24:36

ideally we use the Internet to build a culture of strong support for artists who never would have had mainstream support in the past

dangillmor

2017-08-31 15:24:44

@davidw fans don't equal true fans.

evangreer

2017-08-31 15:24:44

we know the power of crowdfunding

susie

2017-08-31 15:24:47

@jamesvasile Yes, and this is the cultural issue that I hope Patreon clarifies with the other half of the "patrons" who don't think it's patronage.

dymaxion

2017-08-31 15:24:50

and then I do other stuff that's basically feeding into the consulting side

brewsterkahle

2017-08-31 15:24:54

Internet Archive gives away backhaul to 9,000 housing units and can not notice the cost because it is so low.

brewsterkahle

2017-08-31 15:25:16

500Mbits/sec peak is all they need.

mrr

2017-08-31 15:26:34

@brewsterkahle #intownproblems #wishwehadsub1dollarperMBPS

dangillmor

2017-08-31 15:26:34

@brewsterkahle nobody needs more than 640k RAM (ducking)

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 15:26:41

What do you mean by "provide backhaul"? What are you actually providing?

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 15:26:49

@brewsterkahle ^^^

brewsterkahle

2017-08-31 15:27:03

Internet Archive uses a municipal dark fiber and puts 40Gigabits/sec over it. it enables of us to use our own buliding for our servers, and we use our servers to heat the building (no air conditioning needed, btw).

brewsterkahle

2017-08-31 15:27:27

@brewsterkahle uploaded a file:

Screen Shot 2017-08-31 at 12.11.14 PM.png

brewsterkahle

2017-08-31 15:28:15

we connect the city's fiber network to our internet connections at a switching point, they put anyone they want to on that, including all libraries, housing projects, museums, etc.

jerrym

2017-08-31 15:28:37

I think in 1000 True Fans, KK was saying the average True Fan was spending a month's income every year on the thing they loved. That's a bunch more than $5/mo. That said, $5/mo from a good cluster of of people adds up, and if you lower your burn rate, the two numbers can meet. That sounds sweet.

brewsterkahle

2017-08-31 15:28:49

the farallons are on our network. we say "bring it on" it is free and unspied on.

dymaxion

2017-08-31 15:29:15

Yeah... IME, I think $5/month is a lot more reasonable

dymaxion

2017-08-31 15:29:42

You might get a few folks who bring that average up, but you're still looking at more like 10k

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 15:29:58

@jerrym I don't know anybody that spends 1/12 of income on one artist. Even rich people don't do that. Frankly, that's a level of obsession that I would not want a fan to have with me.

jerrym

2017-08-31 15:30:33

some fans follow bands around, buy plenty of merch, pay for added access. don't know what that adds up to, but it adds up

maljay

2017-08-31 15:31:41

@davidi Big, big shout out for having Tamara and the band. They're wonderful.

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 15:31:47

@christophermitchell uploaded a file:

This was the map of advertised gig - See North Dakota

Lots of fiber in the upper midwest - mostly co-ops

(This was the map of advertised gig - See North Dakota)

dymaxion

2017-08-31 15:31:47

You might have a few of those per thousand, but not that many

brewsterkahle

2017-08-31 15:31:47

we are at about $1/Mbit/sec per month for internet backhaul at 40Gigabits/sec, so about $40k/month.

evangreer

2017-08-31 15:32:43

I think it's important to understand the ways that the Internet has changed the music game beyond just direct revenue of selling music / access

lev.gonick

2017-08-31 15:32:44

Old Fashioned Love - Tamar Korn and Friends - Porto Franco https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pLQl9hq4BU

Old Fashioned Love - Tamar Korn and Friends - Porto Franco Files

brewsterkahle

2017-08-31 15:32:50

I wish there were an "infoduct" that ran on public right-of-ways that would allow dark fiber to be run through public conduits.

davidw

2017-08-31 15:33:45

@evangreer That would be a really interesting discussion.

dangillmor

2017-08-31 15:34:48

If the Internet & today's recording tech had been around when I was playing for a living, a million years ago, I might well have stayed in music a lot longer.

lev.gonick

2017-08-31 15:34:51

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnjxwcUEApY

Sing On - Gaucho featuring Tamar Korn

evangreer

2017-08-31 15:35:11

Agree @dangillmor For me, the most noticeable effect is on my ability to find work as an artist. It always required some hustle / networking / charisma / willingness to do shit work

evangreer

2017-08-31 15:35:33

i think the idea of the artist as some kind of pure soul who spends 12 hours a day making art and can't be expected to do anything else just hasn't been a reality in a century

dsearls

2017-08-31 15:35:36

Bob & Ray used to have a comic soap opera called “Today is Yesterday Tomorrow”

evangreer

2017-08-31 15:38:43

i think this is tangentially related to the music conversation, a tweetstorm i did a while back on the concept of "selling out" -- i think this speaks to the cultural issues around valuing artist work https://twitter.com/evan_greer/status/858360945235636224

THREAD: I spent a lot of time and energy as a young punk / activist talking about and trying to decide who was or was not a "sell out."

dangillmor

2017-08-31 15:51:13

@evangreer I always assumed I was being paid to drive, carry equipment into and out of venues, deal with asshole club owners and promoters -- and that the music was offered for free. Would be different now.

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 16:02:07

@dangillmor and @evangreer This break down of tour income/expenses for a small time indie band is fascinating. https://www.digitalmusicnews.com/2014/11/25/band-just-finished-28-day-tour-made-much/

This Band Just Finished A 28 Day Tour And Made How Much?!
After 28 days on tour, the members Pomplamoose counted up every receipt, every check, and figured out how much they really made.

sumanah

2017-08-31 16:04:03

https://www.harihareswara.net/sumana/2013/08/21/0 is about my parents' print magazine and how it might still be around if they'd had easier publishing and funding technologies

cayden

2017-08-31 16:04:24

Dipping out for a sec - need to attend to some urgent DACA repeal related issues.

davidw

2017-08-31 16:04:42

throwing punches: https://store.cdbaby.com/cd/roywilliams2

♫ Throwing Punches - Roy Williams. Listen @cdbaby
Click to listen at CDBaby

evangreer

2017-08-31 16:04:51

godspeed @cayden

dymaxion

2017-08-31 16:06:02

Yeah... a dear friend's father runs a radical publishing house in Germany that published a lot of leftist stuff over the years, and also a lot of the early hacker work in that country. It's almost bankrupt now, after a 40 year run -- it's been basically all downhill.

dymaxion

2017-08-31 16:06:25

It's pretty tragic, really -- he's probably going to kill himself once the money's finally really gone.

dsearls

2017-08-31 16:06:56

My slide deck, now with Tamar’s poem: http://bit.ly/dsbh2017

bh17
Shared with Dropbox

evangreer

2017-08-31 16:07:42

apro po to Amanda Palmer and not talking about net neutrality, she and Ted Leo and I did this interview recently: https://consequenceofsound.net/2017/07/ted-leo-and-amanda-palmer-explain-why-we-need-net-neutrality/

Ted Leo and Amanda Palmer Explain Why We Need Net Neutrality
The future of the Internet is in our hands as we Battle for the Net.

davidw

2017-08-31 16:08:41

Verizon calls DSL “High Speed Internet”, with 0.5-1.0mbps download. https://www.verizon.com/home/highspeedinternet/

High Speed Internet Services Provider Verizon | DSL & Fios®
Pick the best High Speed Internet plan for you. DSL or Fiber, all Verizon broadband plans come packaged with home phone. Get two great products at an amazing value.

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 16:10:50

Asymmetric allows ISPs to price discriminate against broadcasters.

dsearls

2017-08-31 16:11:12

testing

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 16:11:17

@dsearls ack

dsearls

2017-08-31 16:13:16

Added a profile image. From my purple phase.

davidw

2017-08-31 16:13:33

Here’s my 2009 article on Why Asymmetry sans the huge photo of my face. Sorry! http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-weinberger/why-uploading-is-slower-t_b_308594.html

Why Uploading Is Slower Than Downloading
If you're like most of the rest of us, the speed at which you upload is way slower than the speed at which you download. That makes sense if you thin...

maljay

2017-08-31 16:13:50

"Physics of course sets the boundaries for any business model." - @davidw

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 16:13:59

From that article: as was said by David Isenberg (who gave me permission to credit him): “Asymmetry is a belief system. The purveyors of connections looked at the Internet and saw TV, then acted according to what they saw.”

hermanw

2017-08-31 16:14:07

Most communications are bursty. You don;t design it for average, like you do not design a plumbing system for the average, you design for a flush.

dsearls

2017-08-31 16:14:37

“Matter can be neither created nor destroyed. It can only be eaten.” — P. Marshall

lev.gonick

2017-08-31 16:18:57

Connect the America Fund https://www.fcc.gov/general/connect-america-fund-caf

Connect America Fund (CAF)
What's New WCB Grants NRS Request for Waiver of RBE Letter of Credit Deadline (9/28/15) Connect America Fund Phase II Funding by Carrier, State, and County (9/15/15) WCB Addresses Transition to Model-Based Support for Carriers that Accepted Phase II (8/31/15) WCB Releases A-CAM Version 1.1 and Illustrative Results for Potential Use in Rate-Of-Return Areas (8/31/15) WCB Adopts Methodology Used to Determine Rate-of-Return Carrier Study Areas Subject to 100 Percent Overlap and Publishes Preliminary List (7/29/15) WCB Announces Upcoming Modifications to the Alternative Connect America Cost Model (7/29/15) Broadband has gone from being a luxury to a necessity for full participation in our

davidw

2017-08-31 16:20:09

Obama’s first FCC chair: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Genachowski

Julius Genachowski
Julius Genachowski (born August 19, 1962) is an American lawyer and businessman. He became the Federal Communications Commission Chairman on June 29, 2009. On March 22, 2013, he announced he would be leaving the FCC in the coming weeks. On January 6, 2014, it was announced that Genachowski had joined The Carlyle Group.

lev.gonick

2017-08-31 16:20:32

https://potsandpansbyccg.com/2017/08/10/the-economics-of-tower-transport/

The Economics of Tower Transport
Many of my clients lease towers and/or fiber transport to reach towers to wireless companies. Since most of my clients operate last-mile networks this is not usually a major source of revenue for them, but it is a significant one, and one of the more profitable things they sell.
I have been advising clients that we are in the midst big changes in the cellular industry and that they should expect payments for cell tower connectivity to start dropping. Transport providers and cell tower owners that won’t renegotiate lower prices could risk losing the business entirely.
Let’s look at AT&T as an example of this. AT&T has been aggressively pushing its vendors to lower prices. At an investor meeting last year AT&T’s president of technology operations told investors that the current industry model is not sustainable. And he is right. As I wrote in a recent blog the entire cellular industry seems to have crossed the threshold where cellular service is becoming a commodity, and that is putting huge pressure on the cellular companies to reduce costs.
Last year FierceWireless posted a letter that AT&T sent to many of vendors telling them to expect to renegotiate rates and terms. In that letter AT&T said that they would pushing for early termination of existing contracts with the expectations of lowering fees. They said they would be looking for the ability to modify or upgrade existing towers for free. And they want to eliminate any automatic price increases and instead have “rents reduced to competitive rates”.
There are two major costs for a cellular company to use somebody else’s tower. First they must lease space on towers including paying for power and space underneath to house equipment. Where AT&T doesn’t own the fiber connecting to the towers they also have to pay for fiber transport to reach the towers. And that transport is not cheap because the bandwidth they need at towers is growing at a torrid pace. Where just five years ago there were very few towers that needed more than a gigabit of bandwidth, I’ve seen rural towers where the carriers are now asking for the right over time to grow to five gigabits. And everything I read about cellular data usage tells me that demand for bandwidth at towers will continue to grow rapidly.
Many of my clients operate in rural areas and some think that their physical isolation makes them immune from any price negotiations with the wireless companies. But I think they are wrong for several reasons.
First, I think a lot of the billions being spend by the FCC’s CAF II program is being used to construct fiber to rural towers. AT&T is spending a most of the $2.5 billion from that program to extend fiber into rural areas. And where they build fiber they won’t need to lease it from anybody else.
I also suspect that the cellular companies are working with Frontier and CenturyLink, the other two big recipients of CAF II money to piggyback on their fiber expansion to reach cellular towers at a lower cost.
Both AT&T and Verizon are also undertaking significant fiber expansion, with one of the goals of that program to cut transport costs. I believe they are doing the math and that they will build fiber to the towers that save them money over the long-run – with those places with the most savings at the top of the list. If they sustain this kind of construction for five or ten years they will eventually be able to bypass most of the towers that they lease today. And the cellular companies should be doing this. If there are going to be lower margins in the cellular business then they ought to use their capital, while they have it, to permanently reduce operating costs.
I also suspect that, while AT&T and Verizon are competitors that they are cooperating to reach the more rural cell sites and have transport swap plans in place that save them both money.
Finally, these companies have been buying fiber network providers, like Verizon’s purchase last year of XO Communications. It would not be surprising to see them continue to buy companies that provide cell site transport.
The cellular companies and their partners don’t communicate well with smaller transport and cell tower owners. I suspect that many of clients will only get an inkling that a cellular company is going to bypass them when they get the cancellation notice of their contracts. So I have been encouraging folks to reach out to the cellular companies to renegotiate terms and prices. I think that those willing to so might be able to keep this as a long-term revenue stream, but that those that want to stick with higher historical prices will eventually get bypassed and will lose the revenue stream altogether. It’s a tough call, because some places are remote enough that they may never be bypassed – but it’s a crap shoot to guess if your own region is on the fiber-expansion list.

davidw

2017-08-31 16:21:19

Tim Nulty. ECFiber https://www.ecfiber.net/

enoss

2017-08-31 16:22:59

[selfie] https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PL5lbdVpMA9vShHVkAXK4iSlZ-vxwCa6As&v=Tsj0HHidWAo

Is wireless a viable delivery method for better Internet? | Ting Ask

davidw

2017-08-31 16:23:29

How about a spoiler for that video, @enoss ?

evangreer

2017-08-31 16:24:06

the headline as question doesn't help you @davidw? 😉

davidw

2017-08-31 16:24:19

Susan Crawford, BH’er http://scrawford.net/

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 16:24:34

Without watching it, I'm going to sum it up as: "No"

brewsterkahle

2017-08-31 16:26:34

what company did google acquire?

enoss

2017-08-31 16:26:41

webpass

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 16:28:05

Yesterday Matt stunned me when he said he doesn't have an internet connection at his home. Matt is the leading expert on providing service to homes like his and he can't get service.

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 16:28:24

A discussion about the next phase of Connect America- where the rules are being written this year!! https://muninetworks.org/content/jon-chambers-rethinking-rules-connect-america-fund-community-broadband-bits-podcast-268

Jon Chambers: Rethinking The Rules on The Connect America Fund - Community Broadband Bits Podcast 268
Jon Chambers, a partner at Conexon, returns to visit us this week to talk about rural connectivity and the approaching Connect America Fund (CAF) auction. Conexon works with electric cooperatives to establish high-quality Internet networks for members, typically in rural areas where national providers don’t offer the kinds of services communities need.

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 16:29:01

@jamesvasile Matt uses a mobile hotspot - so not fixed access, but some service

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 16:30:16

@christophermitchell Yes, true. I don't count that as residential quality service.

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 16:30:38

@christophermitchell uploaded a file:

Seriously?

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 16:30:42

@jamesvasile rightfully so

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 16:32:29

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2031692

Universal Service in China and India: Legitimating the State? by Krishna Jayakar, Chun Liu :: SSRN
This paper examines the contrasting experiences with universal telecommunications service policies in China and India as manifestations of the two states’ diffe

davidw

2017-08-31 16:33:50

Universal service in India and China http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0308596113001237

davidw

2017-08-31 16:34:28

Oops. @jamesvasile beat me to it.

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 16:34:42

A rare victory. You're too fast.

jlivingood

2017-08-31 16:36:05

DMCA safe harbor is another interesting rat hole to explore, similar to legal intercept / legal demand from law enforcement.

mrr

2017-08-31 16:42:17

@christophermitchell conceivably both... =Wookiee

jlivingood

2017-08-31 16:46:36

See also https://www.law.upenn.edu/live/news/7099-new-penn-research-assesses-financial-viability-of#.Wah1o9OGO8U

New Penn research assesses financial viability of municipal fiber networks
University of Pennsylvania Law School Professor Christopher Yoo and co-author Timothy Pfenninger released the first comprehensive study o...

wseltzer

2017-08-31 16:46:50

Chris: Trust = Political will where the results come after the next election

enoss

2017-08-31 16:47:52

the biggest reason that cities/towns don't do it is because they do not have sufficient $$ in their budgets

enoss

2017-08-31 16:48:04

the tradeoffs are schools/parks/etc

wseltzer

2017-08-31 16:49:10

https://nextcity.org/daily/entry/how-the-tiny-town-of-leverett-got-itself-the-internet

How the Tiny Town of Leverett, MA Got Itself the Internet
A tax increase for faster Internet? One western Massachusetts town did it.

jlivingood

2017-08-31 16:51:33

Maybe we have a topic for a dinner table...

mljones

2017-08-31 16:51:35

a side note given mention of NSA etc.: we've not mentioned 702 renewal....

enoss

2017-08-31 16:52:10

hoping we get to @jlivingood

jlivingood

2017-08-31 16:52:19

Me too! 😉

maljay

2017-08-31 16:52:33

@jamesvasile @davidw In a supremely ironic moment, I lost connectivity while trying to post that article!

evangreer

2017-08-31 16:52:37

@evangreer uploaded a file:

Screen Shot 2017-08-31 at 4.52.48 PM.png

this, right?

(Screen Shot 2017-08-31 at 4.52.48 PM.png)

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 16:52:51

lol

evangreer

2017-08-31 16:53:04

i'd be interested in talking 702

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 16:53:50

Collection of responses to claims against muni networks. https://muninetworks.org/content/correcting-community-fiber-fallacies-page

Correcting Community Fiber Fallacies
*/

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 16:54:19

Video about Ammon, Idaho https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSQVvFY4lPI

Ammon's Model: The Virtual End of Cable Monopolies

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 16:54:59

Tag of lots of stories about Ammon, Idaho's approacch - https://muninetworks.org/tags-304

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 16:56:11

@jlivingood I hope you saw the retractions Yoo offered after we found significant errors- some of which he recognized but I'm not sure are corrected in the pdf they have made available.

maljay

2017-08-31 16:56:23

@maljay uploaded a file:

Image uploaded from iOS

I'm no @shuli but her work (and my inner nerd) provoked me to take this pic of @christophermitchell's fibre.

(Image uploaded from iOS)

jlivingood

2017-08-31 16:57:11

@christophermitchell I sure did! It's good to see give & take & revision.

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 16:57:30

Regarding Pepper in Kansas- http://www.chicagotribune.com/g00/news/opinion/commentary/ct-kansas-sam-brownback-tax-cuts-20170321-story.html?i10c.referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F

Why Sam Brownback's tax cuts failed to make Kansas thrive
Kansas shows that when it comes to supply-side economics, go bigly or go home.

jlivingood

2017-08-31 16:58:11

Dinner table topic #2 = privacy?

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 16:59:43

What are the private partners putting in? Money? Expertise?

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 16:59:54

A paper we did on PPP in broadband - featuring Elliot - https://ilsr.org/ppp-fiber/

The Secrets Behind Partnerships to Improve Internet Access
A growing number of US cities have broken up monopoly control of the Internet marketplace locally. They’re promoting entrepreneurship, and giving residents and businesses real choice in how they connect and reach new audiences. They’ve brought a new wrinkle to an old model: the public-private partnership. “Communities desperately need better Internet access, but not all local…

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 17:00:03

could you imagine what woulkd happen if we had two of @enoss?

enoss

2017-08-31 17:00:04

so good when you don't know if you have been complimented or insulted

davidw

2017-08-31 17:00:24

“I’ll take a couple of Nosses. Better make it three.”

dymaxion

2017-08-31 17:02:46

Why would that ever result in better outcomes for humans?>

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 17:02:58

Our colleague from the great state of Comcast

dymaxion

2017-08-31 17:02:59

That seems like it'd be amazing for companies, but I can't see it helping people.

dymaxion

2017-08-31 17:03:27

(well, for companies that are deeply embedded in each state already, anyway)

davidw

2017-08-31 17:03:46

Data Over Cable Service Interface Specification (DOCSIS /ˈdɒksɪs/) is an international telecommunications standard that permits the addition of high-bandwidth data transfer to an existing cable TV (CATV) system.
DOCSIS - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DOCSIS

DOCSIS
Data Over Cable Service Interface Specification (DOCSIS ) is an international telecommunications standard that permits the addition of high-bandwidth data transfer to an existing cable TV (CATV) system. It is employed by many cable television operators to provide Internet access (see cable Internet) over their existing hybrid fiber-coaxial (HFC) infrastructure. The version numbers are sometimes prefixed with simply "D" instead of "DOCSIS" (e.g. D3 for DOCSIS 3).

lev.gonick

2017-08-31 17:06:53

DOCSIS 1.0
Released in March 1997, DOCSIS 1.0 included functional elements from preceding proprietary cable modems.[4]
DOCSIS 1.1
Released in April 1999, DOCSIS 1.1 standardized quality of service (QoS) mechanisms that were outlined in DOCSIS 1.0.[5]
DOCSIS 2.0
Released in December 2001, DOCSIS 2.0 enhanced upstream data rates in response to increased demand for symmetric services such as IP telephony.
DOCSIS 3.0
Released in August 2006, DOCSIS 3.0 significantly increased data rates (this time both upstream and downstream) and introduced support for Internet Protocol version 6 (IPv6).
DOCSIS 3.1
First released in October 2013,

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 17:07:29

For people that want to get more information about why Chattanooga is unique- I spent 70 minutes interviewing the person most responsible for it. (there is a transcript as with all of our podcasts) https://muninetworks.org/content/deep-history-chattanoogas-fiber-network-community-broadband-bits-podcast-230

The Deep History of Chattanooga's Fiber Network - Community Broadband Bits Podcast 230
In a break from our traditional format of 20-30 minutes (or so), we have a special in-depth interview this week with Harold Depriest, the former CEO and President of Chattanooga's Electric Power Board. He recently retired after 20 incredibly transformative years for both Chattanooga and its municipal electric utility.

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 17:08:32

Wondering if @jlivingood can recommend a 3.1 modem we Comcast subscribers should get... 😃

shuli

2017-08-31 17:09:41

@maljay impressive!

davidw

2017-08-31 17:10:08

Of course WTF is also the name of David I’s occasional DC-based policy/politics conference.

maljay

2017-08-31 17:10:43

@shuli on a lowly iPhone SE.

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 17:10:44

Few use ethernet in the house - but you should!!

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 17:11:12

Also you should run multiple networks - IOT devices have many security problem, keep them separate from what you care about.

davidw

2017-08-31 17:11:41

@christophermitchell , you mean plugging the ethernet cable directly into a device, in addition to plugging it into the wifi router, or something else?

hermanw

2017-08-31 17:12:06

I am a nerd: have optical ethernet in the home with Plastic Optical Fiber. Extremely reliable and easy to install, but expensive because volume is low of electronics

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 17:12:17

My sarcastic, wise-cracking robot maid refuses to make me a decent martini if I banish her to a lesser network. #FutureFirstWorldProblems

hermanw

2017-08-31 17:12:23

Multiple netwerk: agreed

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 17:12:27

@davidw I mean at a minimum, you should keep your video streaming off the Wi-Fi where possible. Jason also added video gaming to that. Your experience wll be better the fewer devices you keep on Wi-Fi

hermanw

2017-08-31 17:13:15

@christophermitchell my home project is to get VLAN locally, to isolate IOT and the like

jerrym

2017-08-31 17:13:35

isn't there a Slack bot that will harvest all URLs and do something with them? Instead of us posting to the references channel.

davidw

2017-08-31 17:13:37

@christophermitchell . Got it. (I do that already, fwiw: TV, and gaming computer are ethernetted.)

hermanw

2017-08-31 17:13:43

@christophermitchell my expectations is that this will be the next wave, to get security

jerrym

2017-08-31 17:13:47

I'll see your Noss and raise you a Noss

dymaxion

2017-08-31 17:13:52

@hermanw VLANs still aren't security isolation tools, any more than they have been for the past 25 years. 🙂

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 17:13:59

Does VLAN offer enough security? I think these Ubitquiti Edgerouters provide more security perhaps for isolation? https://www.ubnt.com/edgemax/edgerouter/

Ubiquiti Networks - EdgeRouter™
The EdgeRouter™ offers 2 million packets per second over its eight independent, Gigabit routing ports.

dymaxion

2017-08-31 17:14:07

That said, yeah, it's less likely that your IOT attacks are going to do VLAN hopping.

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 17:14:25

@jerrym I am saving chat and will scrape links and post to the list at the end

dymaxion

2017-08-31 17:14:49

(if they're http-only attacks on IOT web management interfaces, you're fine; otherwise, maybe not)

hermanw

2017-08-31 17:15:07

@dymaxion exactly, and its relatively practical as opposed to full seperation

dymaxion

2017-08-31 17:15:37

A lot of better APs can trivially run multiple SSIDs, and I think the config load may actually be easier for a lot of folks.

dymaxion

2017-08-31 17:16:01

egress filtering and turning off UPnP, etc. are equally/more important, though.

maljay

2017-08-31 17:16:19

@jamesvasile Wait, your robot maid doesn't scrape links and post to lists? Oh I see, you haven't upgraded networks yet. Maid sulking.

hermanw

2017-08-31 17:16:28

Multiple SSID, that does not get devices on different IP ranges, does it?

davidw

2017-08-31 17:17:06

http://corporate.comcast.com/news-information/news-feed/machineq-comcasts-enterprise-internet-of-things-service-expanding-to-12-major-us-markets

MachineQ, Comcast's Enterprise Internet of Things Service, Expanding to 12 Major U.S. Markets
Comcast today announced plans to expand its enterprise Internet of Things (IoT) service, machineQ™, to 12 major U.S. markets.

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 17:17:27

@mljones We've been focused on dialing in the martinis. It's a task that seems to expand to take all the time and liters available.

maljay

2017-08-31 17:18:23

You don't have to own the network. But it helps. Or doesn't it?

hermanw

2017-08-31 17:18:34

@dymaxion I am more worried about IOT stuff that talks back to the vendor and is on the same IP space as other devices locally, to easy to snoop

dymaxion

2017-08-31 17:19:21

Right; SSID and VLAN will each do you, as long as they're not compromised devices.

dymaxion

2017-08-31 17:19:49

And egress filtering may give you the ability to selectively kill some functionality on the device, depending on how they implemented it.

hermanw

2017-08-31 17:20:03

@dymaxion I would pay for a paper on good strategies to isolate stuff in the home netwerk

dymaxion

2017-08-31 17:20:25

(vendors often do stuff like shove different functions to different hosts, because it's easier for them to think about how the data moves around)

dymaxion

2017-08-31 17:21:06

@hermanw I'll put it in the Patreon queue -- I'm going to be building out a new home network with a fair set of toys this fall, and I've been meaning to spend more time on isolation.

davidw

2017-08-31 17:21:34

One way to increase broadband availability: define “broadband” down. Which the FCC is proposing, right?

hermanw

2017-08-31 17:21:36

Yeah ! I am on

dymaxion

2017-08-31 17:22:17

One of the annoying devices on that front are TVs -- you have to basically use HDMI firewalls if you want to plug them into stuff that's got connectivity and keep them offline.

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 17:22:20

@davidw I think so. There is an NOI now that I need to work on comments on while I am here =(

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 17:23:02

FCC may be preparing to declare satellite broadband awesome and rural problem solved.

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 17:23:09

to be glib

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 17:23:44

@hermanw, @dymaxion - dnsmasq can isolate (jail) each IOT shitbox with relatively little work. Most home routers won't let you do that.

davidw

2017-08-31 17:24:28

A bit like the FON model, except FON is using users’ excess capacity.

hermanw

2017-08-31 17:24:28

@jamesvasile I have a DDWRT router, does that support this?

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 17:24:48

@hermanw I haven't looked at DDWRT in a few years

dymaxion

2017-08-31 17:24:52

nice... I've been avoiding running more in-depth local network services, but maybe I should change that

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 17:26:06

@hermanw I don't actually use dnsmasq anymore. I have no IOT devices, so I just run two SSIDs, one for family and one for guests.

jlivingood

2017-08-31 17:26:46

@davidw FON was indeed looked at very closely - neat model

hermanw

2017-08-31 17:28:46

@jamesvasile will ask a bit more background over dinner

hermanw

2017-08-31 17:29:57

TFZ= Trump Free Zone

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 17:30:50

@hermanw Actually, it looks like DDWRT runs dnsmasq and I think you can upload arbitrary config, so in theory DDWRT can do it, assuming it has the capacity. But again, it's been years since I played with DDWRT.

davidw

2017-08-31 17:33:09

Meanwhile, from the rest of the universe: “FRBS: REPEATING RADIO SIGNALS COMING FROM DISTANT GALAXY DETECTED BY ASTRONOMERS” http://www.newsweek.com/frb-fast-radio-bursts-deep-space-breakthrough-listen-657144

Repeating radio signals coming from deep space have been detected by astronomers
Breakthrough Listen project observes 15 fast radio bursts coming from dwarf galaxy 3 billion light-years away.

maljay

2017-08-31 17:34:13

So at the risk of bringing up net neutrality again (sorry), I'm really curious about why zero-rated solutions like Free Basics are being rolled out in Africa and Asia, as a connectivity panacea, but not so much in the US even in areas/communities/demographics that have similar access problems. I'd love to hear people's thoughts on why.

jerrym

2017-08-31 17:34:28

I believe the signal says "don't believe the emails claims!" but they got the arrival timing wrong

dymaxion

2017-08-31 17:37:18

@maljay Because they're about colonialism and simple solutions to problems that people in Silicon Valley don't understand, not about solving the hard problems that they're closer to understanding.

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 20:33:43

@christophermitchell uploaded a file:

We have witnesses

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 20:40:22

@christophermitchell uploaded a file:

Am I crazy?

dsearls

2017-08-31 20:45:16

My BigHook 2017 photos are starting to collect here: http://bit.ly/dsbh17fotos1

2017_08_30_doc-bighook
Shared with Dropbox

dymaxion

2017-08-31 20:47:38

Who is we here?

rmohan

2017-08-31 20:48:05

We the people?

dymaxion

2017-08-31 20:49:11

Well, I mean the we who are going to survive this presidency

jlivingood

2017-08-31 20:52:21

@jlivingood uploaded a file:

amazon.jpg

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 20:56:10

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_Party_of_America_v._Village_of_Skokie

National Socialist Party of America v. Village of Skokie
National Socialist Party of America v. Village of Skokie, 432 U.S. 43 (1977), arising out of what is sometimes referred to as the Skokie Affair, is a United States Supreme Court case dealing with freedom of speech and freedom of assembly. Related court decisions are captioned Collin v. Smith and Smith v. Collin. Although summarily decided on procedural grounds, the necessary implication of the Supreme Court's 1977 NSPA decision — not directly stated in the unsigned, 5-4 per curiam opinion itself — is that a group's request to engage in a parade or demonstration involving public display of the Nazi swastika is a symbolic form of free speech that is at least presumptively entitled to First Amendment protections. In other words, the Court's decision implies that First Amendment protection would not be denied to use of the swastika as a form of "fighting words". Three of the four dissenters stated their agreement with the majority's position that First Amendment protections were applicable to the NSPA's challenge to the Illinois injunction. (Only Justice White did not join that statement.) By requiring the state court to consider the neo-Nazis' appeal without delay, the U.S. Supreme Court decision opened to door to allowing the National Socialist Party of America to march.

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 20:59:32

Perhaps related to this... According to data published in The Washington Post, the share of young Americans who say it is important or absolutely important to live in a democratic country has dropped from 91 percent among those born in the 1930s to 57 percent among those born in the 1980s. .... https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/21/opinion/the-crisis-of-western-civ.html?mcubz=1

The Crisis of Western Civ
Faith in the West has collapsed and, amazingly, people have been slow to rise to defend it.

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 21:01:16

So, from a 1st Amendment perspective, is it ok to punch a Nazi as long as you're not a government actor?

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 21:01:54

Interviews with this author have been interesting and related - https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/19/books/review-retreat-of-western-liberalism-edward-luce.html?mcubz=1

In ‘The Retreat of Western Liberalism,’ How Democracy Is Defeating Itself
The Financial Times columnist Edward Luce finds that Trumpism and other nationalist movements are symptoms, not causes, of larger trends threatening democratic collapse.

dymaxion

2017-08-31 21:02:02

From a strictly first amendment perspective i can't see how it couldn't be

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 21:03:05

If you're a strong believer in the first amendment, your duty is clear.

maljay

2017-08-31 21:03:34

This is the paper that calculated the cost/time of reading privacy policies, which Ben referred to. https://stanford.edu/~jmayer/law696/week4/The%20Cost%20of%20Reading%20Privacy%20Policies.pdf

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 21:04:00

@jamesvasile - just to be clear - is the nazi's face on fire and you are trying to put it out?

dymaxion

2017-08-31 21:04:54

@christophermitchell Punching fire in a crowded Nazi?

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 21:04:57

@christophermitchell It's possible I have a reasonable fear of facial fires that drives my punching related decision making

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 21:05:18

Or do you restrain from punching the nazi in that case? Ah ha!

maljay

2017-08-31 21:05:29

Sorry I meant this: http://lorrie.cranor.org/pubs/readingPolicyCost-authorDraft.pdf

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 21:05:34

@christophermitchell You are on a slippery slope to Nazi arson

dymaxion

2017-08-31 21:06:35

I don't think it's unreasonable to fire ethanol balloons at many kinds of parades

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 21:06:37

Ducking a hard question. I would not punch a nazi in the face in most cases because I don't think it will help to end nazism and may help to spread their ideas.

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 21:07:20

And I think preserving the right for nazis to openly march can be a canary in the coal mine for problems ahead

susie

2017-08-31 21:07:32

Well, Nazis usually punch first.

susie

2017-08-31 21:08:21

In my experience, at least, they are not super interested in free "speech."

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 21:09:01

I am generally all about letting people speak both as a matter of ethics and strategy. There is a difference when it comes to speech designed to make murder more likely and more acceptable (in both the social sense and the jury-nullifcation sense).

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 21:10:29

Agree @susie and I don't think that matters. A key question in my mind is how to prevent the movement from growing and doing more harm. I think discrediting them publicly is a better strategy. But I understand why others may be compelled to respond with force and tend not to disapprove even as I think it may be counterproductive to building the society we want to live in.

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 21:10:29

And if people weren't actually being killed based on those toxic views, I would be more philosophical about people espousing them.

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 21:11:50

I remain unconvinced that forcing this speech underground does more to prevent the harm these people want to cause.

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 21:12:16

Government repression of speech drives it underground. General social rejection of points of view that reach the point of violence sends a very different signal.

dymaxion

2017-08-31 21:12:34

The historical record on the value of punching Nazis hard and early is clear

dymaxion

2017-08-31 21:12:59

And yeah, community violence and state violence are very different here

susie

2017-08-31 21:14:47

Irregardless of the other issues, just in terms of Nazi marketing strategy, it's hard for me to see how them getting punched and being sad is useful for building their movement.

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 21:15:04

I am uncomfortable with saying public officials cannot block people. But I haven't entirely figured it out.

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 21:15:53

@susie Of course, if you're going to punch a Nazi, please learn how to throw a punch. http://big.assets.huffingtonpost.com/richard-spencer-570.gif

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 21:15:57

@susie Their argument is that the white man is repressed and generally under attack. Being attacked regularly will confirm their claims for the audience they are trying to reach.

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 21:16:41

@christophermitchell It also caps the audience, though.

susie

2017-08-31 21:16:54

They're also heavily invested in being perceived as strong alpha males.

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 21:17:33

@jamesvasile Yes and I understand that some white supremacists are less likely to join these marches. Which is why I have mixed feelings but still lean away from attempting to restrict odious speech

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 21:18:55

@christophermitchell The question of whether some amount of violence is good tactics is empirical. We're not going to solve it here. I'm not sure it's good strategy. I suspect it is net positive but would be hard pressed to prove it.

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 21:19:28

I also have experienced some of the black bloc folks and their interest in being perceived as fighting injustice and protecting people who cannot protect themselves. I don't condemn the black bloc folks but I have known more than a few that talk a good game while reproducing awful gender dynamics in their daily life. I get nervous about their claims of motivations. Violence is seductive.

susie

2017-08-31 21:20:05

I certainly agree that men are bad.

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 21:20:08

In general, it may be worth noting that violence gives a strong edge to strong men.

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 21:20:17

@christophermitchell There is a parallel issue here, though. Vigorous rejection of Nazi views might not stamp them out in wider society, but definitely do draw lines. That message won't fly here. Go peddle that shit somewhere else. It's a form of community self-defense.

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 21:20:37

@jamesvasile agree

cayden

2017-08-31 21:20:53

@christophermitchell have you read this essay, Misogynists Make Great Informants?

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 21:21:03

@cayden no

cayden

2017-08-31 21:21:21

Recommend, coming from and talking about/to anarchist communities

cayden

2017-08-31 21:21:26

lemme find

susie

2017-08-31 21:21:29

Manarchists

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 21:21:46

I think individuals punching nazis might be best considered separately from mob violence against groups of nazis. I have extreme distrust of mobs on left, right, middle, whatever.

cayden

2017-08-31 21:22:21

http://rabble.ca/babble/feminism/why-misogynists-make-great-informants-how-gender-violence-left-enables-state-violenc

Why Misogynists Make Great Informants: How Gender Violence on the Left Enables State Violence in Radical Movements | rabble.ca
Still reading this piece, but needed to share right away! I'm asking that this be a feminist discussion between women babblers. [quote]

cayden

2017-08-31 21:22:47

I think a lot about ways in which interpersonal violence mirrors and amplifies state violence and vice versa

christophermitchell

2017-08-31 21:22:54

has been many years since reading rabble - thanks @cayden

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 21:22:56

@susie Manarchists is a an awesome word and I am going to borrow it

susie

2017-08-31 21:23:16

@jamesvasile please do, I can't take credit but it's extremely useful and relevant

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 21:23:23

@christophermitchell A distinction between individuals and mobs is useful.

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 21:25:58

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/47/230

jamesvasile

2017-08-31 21:26:09

Section 230 ^^^

dymaxion

2017-08-31 21:30:41

I'm curious about the Facebook memory video posts

dsearls

2017-08-31 21:33:19

The rest of yesterday’s photos are up.http://bit.ly/dsbh17fotos1

jerrym

2017-09-01 08:32:10

aaaaaand we're back!

christophermitchell

2017-09-01 08:32:35

@christophermitchell uploaded a file:

Is it just me or.... ?

christophermitchell

2017-09-01 08:33:32

@christophermitchell uploaded a file:

He did!!!

wseltzer

2017-09-01 08:35:48

The power of unanticipating

christophermitchell

2017-09-01 08:45:58

@christophermitchell uploaded a file:

David Takes off Moderator Hat...

christophermitchell

2017-09-01 08:50:03

Given the centralizing nature of Comcast, it may be better if they don't get it.

hermanw

2017-09-01 08:50:16

At the time deregulation and infrastructure based competition was designed , it was about voice competition and getting telco state owned bureaucracies moving. Nobody considered Internet becoming dominant, and the conundrum of investing in the last mile in a competitive shareholder dominant scenario. No politician sees a way out.

dsearls

2017-09-01 08:50:32

@dsearls uploaded a file:

Never-try-to-sell-a-meteor.png

jamesvasile

2017-09-01 08:50:42

For those missing some context, the stuff David was trying to teach AT&T is the stuff he wrote here: http://www.rageboy.com/stupidnet.html

Entropy Gradient Reversals - The Rise of the Stupid Network
Entropy Gradient Reversals is dedicated to the very best in art and culture and to the immediate destruction of those values wherever possible.

enoss

2017-09-01 08:51:26

that hugh mcleod cartoon above is on the wall of my office 🙂

jamesvasile

2017-09-01 08:52:19

Is that the sound of faint praise I hear?

christophermitchell

2017-09-01 08:52:47

I often do tell people - if you think you hate Comcast, try being a Mediacom customer.

dsearls

2017-09-01 08:53:21

Is “fiber from the edge unthinkable?

enoss

2017-09-01 08:53:51

@dsearls pretty much. it can happen at an affluent neighbourhood level

hermanw

2017-09-01 08:54:02

The early decision to go to infrastructure based competition forces companies to evade overbuilding in the last mile.

christophermitchell

2017-09-01 08:54:06

@dsearls It is happening in some places - best way to accelerate it IMHO is to spur people to place greater value on high quality Internet connections

davidw

2017-09-01 08:54:27

Irrelevant to this discussion, but I used the Comcast UI for TV a couple of weeks ago, and it is brilliant.

davidw

2017-09-01 08:54:53

Note: It would be a disaster for civilization if that UI became the UI for the Internet.

christophermitchell

2017-09-01 08:55:20

@christophermitchell uploaded a file:

Ooooh, Ram is up!

dsearls

2017-09-01 08:55:29

Is the UI just for TV? Meaning just for channels?

davidw

2017-09-01 08:55:58

Yes, the UI for channels/programs. It makes Tivo look like a bone ocharina.

christophermitchell

2017-09-01 08:56:45

Ram: a major event has gone from probably to likely (a major bad disruption event)

christophermitchell

2017-09-01 08:57:46

Ram: Took months for actual experts to get involved in solving Deepwater Horizon because they were not involved in the company - they were dispersed (ahem) in various fields

christophermitchell

2017-09-01 08:58:26

Need to break down silos to solve these coming critical events

dsearls

2017-09-01 08:58:36

The remote for our Dish TV is now re-named “bone ocharina.”

jlivingood

2017-09-01 09:00:06

@davidw I think you may be referring to the "X1" platform - https://www.xfinity.com/learn/digital-cable-tv/x1

X1 Cloud DVR
X1 by XFINITY is your Cloud DVR. It's personalized, dynamic, and most of all, it's fun. Experience TV like never before with X1. Start Watching Today!

mljones

2017-09-01 09:01:06

@mljones uploaded a file:

Screen Shot 2017-09-01 at 9.00.10 AM.png

mrr

2017-09-01 09:01:10

@mrr uploaded a file:

Image uploaded from iOS

dsearls

2017-09-01 09:01:17

The remote for AppleTV is like a bad chin control for quadriplegics.

davidw

2017-09-01 09:01:54

I believe so, @jlivingood . It’s a great, user-focused piece of sw.

davidw

2017-09-01 09:02:57

My fear, of course, is that when it comes to the Net, Comcast will learn the wrong lessons from its success. Could you please keep that from happening? Thank you 🙂

davidw

2017-09-01 09:03:33

Steve Kammans: long-time BH’er.

davidw

2017-09-01 09:04:50

“Pay no attention to the blockchain behind the curtain.”

dsearls

2017-09-01 09:06:03

A couple blockchain (technically, distributed ledger) items: https://www.hyperledger.org/, https://sovrin.org/about/

About Sovrin - Sovrin
The Sovrin Foundation The Sovrin Foundation is a private-sector, international non-profit that was established to govern the world’s first self-sovereign identity (SSI) network. The Internet is missing a layer for secure identity which is currently costing us hundreds of billions of dollars each year. The Sovrin Foundation is showing the world that when we control …

jamesvasile

2017-09-01 09:08:12

If the IOT devices are going to be stupid and stumble around breaking shit, we can't just insist they behave better. I keep an eye on a toddler and apply limits when they behave poorly. Routers and switches need to adopt that model.

dymaxion

2017-09-01 09:08:24

Yeah

dymaxion

2017-09-01 09:08:38

That said, that strategy goes very badly when it scales up

dymaxion

2017-09-01 09:08:46

Because as far as your ISP is concerned, you're a toddler.

davidw

2017-09-01 09:08:48

“We turn abundance into scarcity at every level of our educational system. It’s insane.”

dsearls

2017-09-01 09:08:58

“trust is cheaper than control.” — Jer

christophermitchell

2017-09-01 09:09:01

Doesn't this get to the fundamentally broken way software is developed? Steve Crocker used to talk about this every year - that we could have better software.

rmohan

2017-09-01 09:09:02

I saw Ella, Roelof, Barbara, Scott, Farber raising their hands to help me on the safe spaces for securing the internet. Whom did I miss?

dymaxion

2017-09-01 09:09:14

And an internet where your ISP treats you like a toddler isn't an open internet

jamesvasile

2017-09-01 09:09:32

@dymaxion I have long hoped the router I buy would be my IOT net nanny, not my ISP, but you're right.

mljones

2017-09-01 09:09:36

@rmohan add @mljones

rmohan

2017-09-01 09:09:49

@mljones ack

lev.gonick

2017-09-01 09:09:52

@rmohan add @lev.gonick

dymaxion

2017-09-01 09:09:59

I think there might be ways to thread that needle, but it's a complicated path

rmohan

2017-09-01 09:10:00

@lev.gonick ack

jamesvasile

2017-09-01 09:10:29

@dymaxion I don't think it will happen with current market incentives and scale of resources applied to the problem.

dymaxion

2017-09-01 09:11:04

Fundamentally, though, while it'd be great to have soho network kit with better security controls, what you're talking about is basically just perimeter security, and we all know it doesn't actually work.

christophermitchell

2017-09-01 09:11:06

No disrespect, but this idea that we need to help Comcast succeed is what leaves us with monopolies that ultimately cause more problems than they succeed. Monopolies are not obviously bad because they have tradeoffs and can be seductive to solve some problems.

dsearls

2017-09-01 09:12:58

+1, Chris

jamesvasile

2017-09-01 09:13:06

@christophermitchell Monopolies are inherently bad because they concentrate power in ways that lead to a 100% track record of abuse.

dymaxion

2017-09-01 09:14:14

I think the place the IoT security stuff goes in the medium term is software liability.

jerrym

2017-09-01 09:14:17

I'm agreed, Chris and James. How might we convince Comcast that it's in their benefit to avoid antitrust actions by being a more open competitor?

christophermitchell

2017-09-01 09:14:24

@jamesvasile Inherently doesn't mean obvious- they generate some benefits - as with Bell labs, historically, right? May be bad example, but if monopolies were Darth Vader, pretty sure we wouldn't have so many of them and more than half the US wouldn't be members of Amazon prime.

jamesvasile

2017-09-01 09:14:40

@jerrym That starts with putting credible antitrust regulators in place.

dymaxion

2017-09-01 09:14:54

I also think this is probably a good thing, if it's done right. But it's probably going to be done wrong if folks don't get out in front of it.

jamesvasile

2017-09-01 09:15:00

@dymaxion We're a long way from that medium term I think

dsearls

2017-09-01 09:15:02

Sometimes, however, monopolies do cast off useful and world-changing stuff. One example: the original IBM PC in 1982, after which personal computing fully took off.

christophermitchell

2017-09-01 09:15:27

@jamesvasile Regulators don't cut it - they get gamed and captured. Need to break up concentrated power, not regulate it. Hundreds of years of history

jamesvasile

2017-09-01 09:15:35

@dsearls Sure. I don't think anybody would say monopolies are wholly evil.

dymaxion

2017-09-01 09:15:45

@jamesvasile Oh., of course. We need a bunch more people to die from software first

jamesvasile

2017-09-01 09:15:54

@christophermitchell It's the regulators that do the breaking up

dymaxion

2017-09-01 09:15:55

@jamesvasile But the EU may force the issue.

hermanw

2017-09-01 09:16:05

A monopoly on the infastructure level of home tails is the most efficient and easily financiable options......

christophermitchell

2017-09-01 09:16:17

@jamesvasile If that is what you mean by regulators - but that was not obvious from your words IMO

jamesvasile

2017-09-01 09:16:23

@dymaxion Yes, that might be true. I'm more US-focused than you are, so the EU stuff feels farther away to me

jamesvasile

2017-09-01 09:16:40

@christophermitchell Fair enough!

christophermitchell

2017-09-01 09:17:40

@jamesvasile Also ... and I'm still learning this, I think antitrust typically refers to "let's regulate" and antimonopoly typically refers to "break that shit up" or at least some folks like Barry Lynn are trying to disambiguate that.

davidw

2017-09-01 09:18:17

Yes, @dsearls, but of course the PC took off in large part because competitors were able to produce PCs that could run the same OS, sw, peripherals, and hw components. (My first IBM PC was a Zenith.)

hermanw

2017-09-01 09:18:36

Doc is under representing the level of anxiety and interest in EU in GDPR

christophermitchell

2017-09-01 09:18:39

monopolies can also create standards (for good and ill)

lev.gonick

2017-09-01 09:18:57

say more @hermanw to the group out loud

davidw

2017-09-01 09:19:03

@hermanw , what’s your assessment of the the proportion and anxiety and interest?

enoss

2017-09-01 09:19:49

with GDPR consent is i) not a prophylactic and ii) must be revokable at any time (imagine holding millions of records and having to excise one, on a regular basis, daily)

jamesvasile

2017-09-01 09:19:59

@christophermitchell My experience stems from a few antitrust cases I worked on (AOL-TW merger, some NYC cable stuff, Netscape v MSFT), and from the POV of companies subject to regulation, we spoke about breakup as a kind of regulation. Barry's probably right that disambiguating is useful, though.

christophermitchell

2017-09-01 09:20:03

Because i keep forgetting this - General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR)

sumanah

2017-09-01 09:20:12

"GAFA" - Google, Amazon, Facebook, Apple

davidw

2017-09-01 09:20:16

Huge impact on machine learning/deep learning, too.

jerrym

2017-09-01 09:21:26

what industries, US or worldwide, are nicely distributed and not oligopolies, duopolies or monopolies?

christophermitchell

2017-09-01 09:21:43

Not coherent thoughts? I Thought that was the rule, not the exception... 😃

sumanah

2017-09-01 09:22:01

@jerrym childcare

jamesvasile

2017-09-01 09:22:01

@jerrym Fin services?

christophermitchell

2017-09-01 09:22:21

@jerrym many types of photography. Catering I think. Construction.

hermanw

2017-09-01 09:22:29

GDPR has already lead to startups like this one https://onlyonce.com/

davidw

2017-09-01 09:22:35

Gas stations?

jerrym

2017-09-01 09:22:53

seems like the open PC revolution came about because Gates/Ballmer convinced a naive PC group in Boca that others should be allowed to license DOS, which of course leads us to the new Microsoft monopoly a couple years later

davidw

2017-09-01 09:23:08

plumbers, contractors, restaurants, universities…

christophermitchell

2017-09-01 09:23:11

@davidw re gas stations - I don't think so- I think those are concentrated with different names. Like car rental firms, they are controlled by oligopoly but has appearance of competition with many brands

hermanw

2017-09-01 09:23:36

@davidw yes, in AI learning as it is done now you would run into a brick wall

jerrym

2017-09-01 09:23:43

Dan: Fb, Google et all should be forced to offer a paid service where they store/stalk/resell nothing about me

alixtrot

2017-09-01 09:23:57

does that mean that only people who can afford to pay for the service get control over their data?

jerrym

2017-09-01 09:24:06

Dan: why is there no liability for shitty software?

christophermitchell

2017-09-01 09:24:06

Dan: Why no liability for shitty software??????

dymaxion

2017-09-01 09:24:08

Part of the complexity there is it now means that the services have to maintain a second codebase where they don't track folks. Scaling that becomes harder than one would hope

davidw

2017-09-01 09:24:09

Thanks, @christophermitchell . Still seem to be independent gas stations, although they buy gas from the majors, right?

jamesvasile

2017-09-01 09:24:38

If that software controls the brakes in a Toyota, I think there is liability. So why there but not elsewhere?

christophermitchell

2017-09-01 09:24:50

@davidw yes, but not sure of marketshare vs those that are just franchises... I don't consider franchises to be independent. Though I am speculating from very little knowledge so should go back to memes.

davidw

2017-09-01 09:25:02

And I shall go back to enjoying your memes.

christophermitchell

2017-09-01 09:25:28

Huzzah! Dan: the wealthy left has done nothing. YES

christophermitchell

2017-09-01 09:25:48

I'll bet Cayden and I aren't only ones struggling to raise funds. Takes so much of our valuable time!!!

jamesvasile

2017-09-01 09:25:53

@christophermitchell Franchise agreements can be pretty rigid. I wonder if any industry has ever been monopolized by a chain of franchises. That would be interesting.

jerrym

2017-09-01 09:25:56

extremely local services like childcare and plumbing make sense as independents. also, governments haven't jumped on them to turn them into single entities

dsearls

2017-09-01 09:26:02

Jerry, no doubt Gates & Microsoft took full advantage of IBM’s cluelessness about what they brought into the world with the PC, but the fact that nearly all of business adopted the PC, in a remarkably short time, was thanks to the fact that those business would buy IBM and nobody else.

hermanw

2017-09-01 09:26:11

The sad history of the "left" is infighting internally bsaed on righteousness

jerrym

2017-09-01 09:26:18

Walkaway: https://www.amazon.com/Walkaway-Cory-Doctorow-ebook/dp/B01FQQ47OC/

jerrym

2017-09-01 09:26:22

well worth the read

christophermitchell

2017-09-01 09:26:45

Buy Walkaway from an independent bookstore. Don't help Amazon conquer all - make them work for it.

dsearls

2017-09-01 09:26:54

If anyone is interested in what I’m working on re: the GDPR. http://j.mp/adbwars

People vs. Adtech
This is a list of pieces I’ve written about what millions of us are doing to fight unwelcome surveillance of our private spaces online by tracking-based advertising, known in the trade as adt…

christophermitchell

2017-09-01 09:26:58

I read it from the library. Was awesome.

jerrym

2017-09-01 09:27:08

@dsearls yes, and in that sense, Microsoft cleverly hijacked IBM's reputation to surpass them

christophermitchell

2017-09-01 09:27:45

What I don't understand is the point in time in which the U.S. was great and not worth walking away from....

dsearls

2017-09-01 09:27:47

Full credit to Bricklin & Frankston & what followed as well.

hermanw

2017-09-01 09:27:48

http://www.gdprsummit.london/

GDPR:SUMMIT LONDON
With the General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR) deadline looming never has it been more crucial for businesses of all sizes to ensure they understand the implications. This one-day summit...

jerrym

2017-09-01 09:28:18

Ella, do you think of what you're doing as a Walkaway, or is it just a switch of venue?

cayden

2017-09-01 09:28:22

I have a different read @hermanw, more related to trying to create spaces that are equitable for meaningfully diverse movements and the challenges of making space for difference. Culturally we don't have a lot of skills, norms to follow there. My $0.02

hermanw

2017-09-01 09:29:18

http://www.gdpr2017.eu/en/conference/

christophermitchell

2017-09-01 09:29:26

@christophermitchell uploaded a file:

2017-08-30__bighook__0038-Edit.jpg

hermanw

2017-09-01 09:30:16

https://10times.com/are-you-ready-for-gdpr

Are you ready for GDPR? Data Protection Conference
Are you ready for GDPR? Data Protection Conference will be held in Bucharest, Romania starting on 14th Sep, 2017. This Conference is a 1 day event and will end on 14th September, 2017

hermanw

2017-09-01 09:30:24

and so on

dymaxion

2017-09-01 09:30:57

@jerrym I loved the book, but it's not really how I frame my life. It's a bunch of different things -- in part, something I've been meaning to do for years, to get outside the bubble of empire so I can see the rest of the world properly; partially, it's the financial/actuarial decision I mentioned, and partially it's an acute political exile from a country that's got folks marching in the streets with assault rifles who'd like to send me to a death camp.

dsearls

2017-09-01 09:31:30

Look up GDPR on Google https://www.google.com/search?q=gdpr and nearly all the ads at the top, all selling expensive GDPR compliance “solutions” are from the same companies that caused the problem, by talking the corporate world into surveillance capitalism, and harvesting mass quantities of “big data” that has since become a toxic asset. IBM, SAP, McKinsey, et. al. Ironies abound.

christophermitchell

2017-09-01 09:31:48

Important point - there are one way ratchets that don't get ratcheted back - speaking of biometric information.

davidw

2017-09-01 09:33:08

“the gaze of the state” - malavika

dsearls

2017-09-01 09:34:37

http://bit.ly/p0stp3k shows how McKinsey and IBM got business to salivate for “big data,” which did not even show in search trends before they started marketing it.

After Peak Marketing – ART + marketing
We’ve passed Peak Marketing. That’s what Google Books suggests.

dymaxion

2017-09-01 09:35:58

...and we need to think about the role of companies that we like, support, and work for in the US in building, selling, and rolling out those abusive systems.

christophermitchell

2017-09-01 09:36:22

@christophermitchell uploaded a file:

Watch him, it's totally true.

hmhgoldstone

2017-09-01 09:36:35

@maljay Do facial and iris recognition work best on pale skin/eyes because they were designed by and tested on those with pale skin and eyes? Is it fixable?

christophermitchell

2017-09-01 09:38:40

@christophermitchell uploaded a file:

Feel free to suggest better captions.

dymaxion

2017-09-01 09:39:07

@hmhgoldstone It's unclear to me that effort to fix it vs. eliminating an abusive system is the right step.

davidw

2017-09-01 09:39:29

Eye-opening, so to speak, Mal, at least for me.

maljay

2017-09-01 09:40:24

Careful of those eyes!

hmhgoldstone

2017-09-01 09:44:33

@dymaxion Absolutely agree. More of an academic question, harkening back to convos at BH2016 about the unintended consequences of who designs systems.

christophermitchell

2017-09-01 10:31:05

@christophermitchell uploaded a file:

OMG for realz

davidw

2017-09-01 10:31:50

Barry Lynn op-ed: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/posteverything/wp/2017/08/31/i-criticized-google-it-got-me-fired-thats-how-corporate-power-works/?utm_term=.c817d58c143b

Perspective | I criticized Google. It got me fired. That’s how corporate power works.
I study the way big businesses control our lives. What happened to me is a chilling example.

mljones

2017-09-01 10:32:05

@mljones uploaded a file:

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wseltzer

2017-09-01 10:33:31

Matt: Definitions matter when they're deeply wrong

wseltzer

2017-09-01 10:34:15

"the definition can only fail us because it doesn't have the goals we want"

enoss

2017-09-01 10:35:15

was it obvious to others what changes to the definition would lead to human flourishing?

mljones

2017-09-01 10:35:27

@mljones uploaded a file:

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mljones

2017-09-01 10:35:35

Canadian def. fwiw

enoss

2017-09-01 10:36:02

yay us!

dsearls

2017-09-01 10:37:26

“Oligarchs are going to murder civilization…”

wseltzer

2017-09-01 10:37:26

fascinating difference between focus on the individual vs nation state

enoss

2017-09-01 10:38:53

individual focus = side door

christophermitchell

2017-09-01 10:38:57

Ella echoing Lucy Parsons? from a song by Utah Phillips - She hunched over that podium, hawk-like, and fixed that multitude with those beady black eyes, and said: “What I want is for every greasy grimy tramp to arm himself with a knife or a gun and stationing himself at the doorways of the rich shoot or stab them as they come out.” - http://sfbayview.com/2011/02/lucy-parsons-%E2%80%98shoot-them-or-stab-them%E2%80%99/

Lucy Parsons: ‘Shoot them or stab them’
Lucy Parsons is the Haymarket Square widow who internationalized the struggle for the eight-hour day and whose work led to the May Day rallies held around the world, except in the U.S., to celebrate International Workers Day.

jerrym

2017-09-01 10:39:07

but the web is, generally, a Commons. it's full of non-commonsy things, but it is one

dsearls

2017-09-01 10:39:27

fwiw, what I wrote about metaphors for the Net (and much else) in 1999: http://bit.ly/1999future

The Future Since 1999 – Hacker Noon
This is an unpublished piece I just found. It was last modified on September 25, 1999, less than a month after Chris Locke, David…

wseltzer

2017-09-01 10:40:03

the Internet's commons are carved from easements on private structures

davidw

2017-09-01 10:40:04

The Web is a commons, but you can’t meet on The Web. You can only meet at a place on the Web.

jamesvasile

2017-09-01 10:40:41

Lambda MOO was a commons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LambdaMOO.

LambdaMOO.

jamesvasile

2017-09-01 10:40:51

I guess it still is, for some.

jerrym

2017-09-01 10:41:08

@susie do you know Adina Levin? she's been very active in improving Bay Area transit

enoss

2017-09-01 10:41:15

uber losses = reaching scale, not raising prices. this is the misunderstanding of amazon (same game) whose prices have generally gone down

jerrym

2017-09-01 10:41:30

ah, LambdaMOO 🙂

evangreer

2017-09-01 10:41:38

@evangreer uploaded a file:

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evangreer

2017-09-01 10:41:40

@evangreer uploaded a file:

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susie

2017-09-01 10:42:19

@jerrym Yes she's great, but there's little to no appetite at a government level to do much. 101 municipalities don't work well together.

jerrym

2017-09-01 10:42:28

I think vivisectors should be flayed alive. karma, no?

jerrym

2017-09-01 10:42:45

agree entirely. it sucks.

desiree

2017-09-01 10:43:20

a German start up asking who’s going to become The platform for all shared public transport, including uber, drivenow, predicting shared taxis are the solution https://www.door2door.io/

door2door | The Mobility Company
door2door is an urban mobility startup, based in Berlin and operational across the globe. door2door’s platform and apps guide cities towards a future of inner city mobility that is car-free and ecological.

susie

2017-09-01 10:43:26

https://ccrjustice.org/home/what-we-do/our-cases/us-v-shac-7

U.S. v. SHAC 7
The federal prosecution, on "animal enterprise terrorism" charges, of 6 animal rights activists and their non-profit organization, for publishing a website that advocated and reported on protest activity against a product testing lab.

jerrym

2017-09-01 10:44:22

wrote about LambdaMOO in 1994: http://cdn.oreillystatic.com/radar/r1/06-94.pdf 🙂

jamesvasile

2017-09-01 10:45:27

@enoss This relates to the MSFT monopoly conversation where the public harm debate was centered around a possible future when the monopolist jacks prices after driving out competition. It doesn't generally happen because barriers to entry are hard to maintain in a tech markets that move so quickly and get disrupted so regularly. There are, however, places where the monopoly harm does come to pass and we see that with ISP monopolies providing crap service and charging high prices. The question to ask might be whether barriers to entry in taxi apps is more like a tech business or more like a fixed infrastructure business.

evangreer

2017-09-01 10:46:23

@evangreer uploaded a file:

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evangreer

2017-09-01 10:46:26

meant to drop this in as well

evangreer

2017-09-01 10:46:52

also -- i forgot to finish the thought about terrorism: i'm worried about the left embracing the term by calling for nazis to be charged with terrorism enhancements

enoss

2017-09-01 10:47:02

agree @jamesvasile. the monopoly card is played too often and to the detriment of true monopoly enforcement. attacking google/fb makes it easy for real monopolies to find shelter

evangreer

2017-09-01 10:47:32

because once the FBI has that power they will -- as Ben said -- inevitably use it to target Black Lives Matter, Antifa, etc

susie

2017-09-01 10:47:35

@jamesvasile @enoss The fear is also that the private transit services draw more ridership and resources away from the public options -- e.g. Lyft's new bus project

jamesvasile

2017-09-01 10:47:55

@susie Yes, definitely.

susie

2017-09-01 10:47:58

http://68.media.tumblr.com/25808f727699d8c039cf23130f2ccbc7/tumblr_n9zxe7CnY81qzgb2io1_1280.jpg

hermanw

2017-09-01 10:48:06

In fixed networks the investment is in the tail to the home, where there is only one customer, and costs are sunk. Hard to compete with first mover.

enoss

2017-09-01 10:48:38

@susie transportation is complicated, but I do think they can and should complement each other

evangreer

2017-09-01 10:48:56

A comment about comments: https://www.fightforthefuture.org/news/2017-08-30-cable-industrys-own-study-shows-their-plan-to/

Cable industry’s own study shows their plan to kill net neutrality is as unpopular as ever
Fight for the Future is dedicated to protecting and expanding the Internet's transformative power in our lives by creating civic campaigns that are engaging for millions of people.

evangreer

2017-09-01 10:50:08

There's been lots of discussion about how many are frauds etc. The fact the FCC isn't getting its cybersecurity house in order is a separate problem, but it's worth noting that a Broadband for America funded study shows that the UNIQUE comments are 98.5% in favor of Title II, or 73 to 1

cayden

2017-09-01 10:50:09

@evangreer I don't know what the answer is here and I think we should talk about this more, but while I don't think FB should be the arbiter of what is/is not acceptable speech, I am also really worried about the virulence of the reactionary right and allowing them tools to build power. Platforms aren't just about speech but also about the capacity to amass collectivities for action.

christophermitchell

2017-09-01 10:50:10

@christophermitchell uploaded a file:

More of this...

dsearls

2017-09-01 10:50:50

Yes. Rule #1: Do what the woman says.

evangreer

2017-09-01 10:51:45

@cayden yes, thank you. i don't know what the answer is either. my worry is that any system that gets created to deny Neo-Nazis that tool will inevitably be used to deny it to many others who desperately should have it

evangreer

2017-09-01 10:52:19

which leads me back to the idea that we should use the internet to fight them -- people should totally be doxxing nazis, getting their events canceled, confronting them at every turn.

cayden

2017-09-01 10:52:23

Right, and my intuition here is that we need to expand the conversation beyond speech and into power. @evangreer

cayden

2017-09-01 10:52:28

Yup!

evangreer

2017-09-01 10:52:30

christophermitchell

2017-09-01 10:54:23

Title II gives the FCC the capacity (if it chooses) to try to force unbundling (sharing fiber) and pricing controls. The FCC said it would not do that and while it could change its might, there is no precedent for the FCC forebearing to use that authority and then changing its mind (from what FCC -following attorneys have told me).

evangreer

2017-09-01 10:54:39

@cayden are you thinking something along the lines of "anyone can say anything, but if you have a page with a certain number of followers you can't say stuff that violates a transparent list of community principles" or something like that?

christophermitchell

2017-09-01 10:54:41

Just thought it was worth mentioning

cayden

2017-09-01 10:55:31

Maybe? But I don't think you need a page to build power, and I think a lot of folks with popular pages don't have an engaged base, and therefore little power.

christophermitchell

2017-09-01 10:55:52

I think** - that Jason tends to be more supportive of NN than Comcast as a whole and so this puts him in a very difficult position.

cayden

2017-09-01 10:56:03

There are some challenges around categories of things and measurement of what power looks like online.

evangreer

2017-09-01 10:56:11

totally @cayden

dymaxion

2017-09-01 10:56:20

Why is speed good?

dymaxion

2017-09-01 10:56:42

Why should development be cheap at the expense of a Commons?

evangreer

2017-09-01 10:57:01

Possibly helpful if you're catching up on the ins and outs, I wrote yesterday about the comment period ending and what comes next http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/59a85a75e4b096fd8876c161

We Need The Internet Now More Than Ever, But Time Is Running Out To Save It
The FCC is preparing to destroy net neutrality and, in so doing, forever change the free flow of information.

evangreer

2017-09-01 10:58:48

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2008/08/fcc-rules-against-comcast-bit-torrent-blocking

FCC Rules Against Comcast for BitTorrent Blocking
On Friday, the FCC voted, 3-2, to punish Comcast for its surreptitious interference with BitTorrent uploads (a practice that EFF helped uncover and document in October 2007). The Commission adopted an order (text of which hasn't been released yet) finding that Comcast violated the neutrality...

dsearls

2017-09-01 11:01:52

For fighting our various fights, it can help to read what George Lakoff has been writing about Trump and why and how The Orange One and his fellow travelers succeed.: https://georgelakoff.com/2016/07/23/understanding-trump-2/ . Worth remembering as well that Obama and his speechwriters leveraged Lakoff in ’08 and ‘12.

Understanding Trump
Understanding Trump
By George Lakoff
There is a lot being written and spoken about Trump by intelligent and articulate commentators whose insights I respect. But as a longtime researcher in cognitive science and linguistics, I bring a perspective from these sciences to an understanding of the Trump phenomenon. This perspective is hardly unknown. More than half a million people have read my books, and Google Scholar reports that scholars writing in scholarly journals have cited my works well over 100,000 times.
Yet you will probably not read what I have to say in the NY Times, nor hear it from your favorite political commentators. You will also not hear it from Democratic candidates or party strategists. There are reasons, and we will discuss them later I this piece. I am writing it because I think it is right and it is needed, even though it comes from the cognitive and brain sciences, not from the normal political sources. I think it is imperative to bring these considerations into public political discourse. But it cannot be done in a 650-word op-ed. My apologies. It is untweetable.
I will begin with an updated version of an earlier piece on who is supporting Trump and why — and why policy details are irrelevant to them. I then move to a section on how Trump uses your brain against you. I finish up discussing how Democratic campaigns could do better, and why they need to do better if we are to avert a Trump presidency.
Who Supports Trump and Why

Donald J. Trump has managed to become the Republican nominee for president, Why? How? There are various theories: People are angry and he speaks to their anger. People don’t think much of Congress and want a non-politician. Both may be true. But why? What are the details? And Why Trump?
He seems to have come out of nowhere. His positions on issues don’t fit a common mold.
He has said nice things about LGBTQ folks, which is not standard Republican talk. Republicans hate eminent domain (the taking of private property by the government) and support corporate outsourcing for the sake of profit, but he has the opposite views on both. He is not religious and scorns religious practices, yet the Evangelicals (that is, the white Evangelicals) love him. He thinks health insurance and pharmaceutical companies, as well as military contractors, are making too much profit and wants to change that. He insults major voting groups, e.g., Latinos, when most Republicans are trying to court them. He wants to deport 11 million immigrants without papers and thinks he can. He wants to stop Muslims from entering the country. What is going on?
The answer requires a bit of background.
In the 1900’s, as part of my research in the cognitive and brain sciences, I undertook to answer a question in my field: How do the various policy positions of conservatives and progressives hang together? Take conservatism: What does being against abortion have to do with being for owning guns? What does owning guns have to do with denying the reality of global warming? How does being anti-government fit with wanting a stronger military? How can you be pro-life and for the death penalty? Progressives have the opposite views. How do their views hang together?
The answer came from a realization that we tend to understand the nation metaphorically in family terms: We have founding fathers. We send our sons and daughters to war. We have homeland security. The conservative and progressive worldviews dividing our country can most readily be understood in terms of moral worldviews that are encapsulated in two very different common forms of family life: The Nurturant Parent family (progressive) and the Strict Father family (conservative).
What do social issues and the politics have to do with the family? We are first governed in our families, and so we grow up understanding governing institutions in terms of the governing systems of families.
In the strict father family, father knows best. He knows right from wrong and has the ultimate authority to make sure his children and his spouse do what he says, which is taken to be what is right. Many conservative spouses accept this worldview, uphold the father’s authority, and are strict in those realms of family life that they are in charge of. When his children disobey, it is his moral duty to punish them painfully enough so that, to avoid punishment, they will obey him (do what is right) and not just do what feels good. Through physical discipline they are supposed to become disciplined, internally strong, and able to prosper in the external world. What if they don’t prosper? That means they are not disciplined, and therefore cannot be moral, and so deserve their poverty. This reasoning shows up in conservative politics in which the poor are seen as lazy and undeserving, and the rich as deserving their wealth. Responsibility is thus taken to be personal responsibility not social responsibility. What you become is only up to you; society has nothing to do with it. You are responsible for yourself, not for others — who are responsible for themselves.
Winning and Insulting
As the legendary Green Bay Packers coach, Vince Lombardi, said,
“Winning isn’t everything. It’s the only thing.” In a world governed by personal responsibility and discipline, those who win deserve to win. Why does Donald Trump publicly insult other candidates and political leaders mercilessly? Quite simply, because he knows he can win an onstage TV insult game. In strict conservative eyes, that makes him a formidable winning candidate who deserves to be a winning candidate. Electoral competition is seen as a battle. Insults that stick are seen as victories — deserved victories.
Consider Trump’s statement that John McCain is not a war hero. The reasoning: McCain got shot down. Heroes are winners. They defeat big bad guys. They don’t get shot down. People who get shot down, beaten up, and stuck in a cage are losers, not winners.
The Moral Hierarchy
The strict father logic extends further. The basic idea is that authority is justified by morality (the strict father version), and that, in a well-ordered world, there should be (and traditionally has been) a moral hierarchy in which those who have traditionally dominated should dominate. The hierarchy is: God above Man, Man above Nature, The Disciplined (Strong) above the Undisciplined (Weak), The Rich above the Poor, Employers above Employees, Adults above Children, Western culture above other cultures, America above other countries. The hierarchy extends to: Men above women, Whites above Nonwhites, Christians above nonChristians, Straights above Gays.
We see these tendencies in most of the Republican presidential candidates, as well as in Trump, and on the whole, conservative policies flow from the strict father worldview and this hierarchy
Family-based moral worldviews run deep. Since people want to see themselves as doing right not wrong, moral worldviews tend to be part of self-definition — who you most deeply are. And thus your moral worldview defines for you what the world should be like. When it isn’t that way, one can become frustrated and angry.
There is a certain amount of wiggle room in the strict father worldview and there are important variations. A major split is among (1) white Evangelical Christians, (2) laissez-fair free market conservatives, and (3) pragmatic conservatives who are not bound by evangelical beliefs.
White Evangelicals
Those whites who have a strict father personal worldview and who are religious tend toward Evangelical Christianity, since God, in Evangelical Christianity, is the Ultimate Strict Father: You follow His commandments and you go to heaven; you defy His commandments and you burn in hell for all eternity. If you are a sinner and want to go to heaven, you can be ‘born again” by declaring your fealty by choosing His son, Jesus Christ, as your personal …

christophermitchell

2017-09-01 11:02:51

My impression of small providers - munis, independents, etc - is that they really hate the FCC creating new rules to solve what they view as a problem that only Comcast, Charter, AT&T, et al have caused. So they feel that the FCC is punishing small providers to correct a problem that the big providers present. In part, this is the reality, that striking deals to prioritize content is something that is almost only possible for large firms that have significant market power.

davidw

2017-09-01 11:03:44

is @jlivingood supporting keeping the current classification?

jamesvasile

2017-09-01 11:03:51

@christophermitchell How do the rules impact the smaller providers? If they don't apply, what kind of weight are they imposing on smaller providers?

enoss

2017-09-01 11:03:54

@christophermitchell except they ignore the size exemptions whenever it is discussed (#brettglass)

christophermitchell

2017-09-01 11:04:07

@enoss Right.

christophermitchell

2017-09-01 11:04:20

@jamesvasile They have been mostly exempted

jamesvasile

2017-09-01 11:04:28

Got it

dymaxion

2017-09-01 11:04:30

Ah, the Democrats: paid to lose

evangreer

2017-09-01 11:05:00

Not that it would suprise me if dems said that, but they've also largely been in lock step on opposing legislation because the overwhelming majority of public interest groups see legislation at this moment as an attack on the rules

dangillmor

2017-09-01 11:05:03

The cynicism of Democrats on this -- go slow so we can raise money -- is epic.

evangreer

2017-09-01 11:05:13

i'm not actually convinced that is happening @dangillmor

davidw

2017-09-01 11:05:14

Wait, @enoss and @christophermitchell , are the small WISPs exempted or not? I’m confused.

christophermitchell

2017-09-01 11:05:15

But they fear it will increase their cost of capital. And they will have more paperwork to fill out. And they fear that problem customers can submit complaints to the FCC that are without merit and the ISPs will be stuck navigating that system. Also, they have been told this is the end of the free market system by the small cable trade association.

christophermitchell

2017-09-01 11:05:45

@davidw Yes, I believe initial exemption was for those with fewer than 100K subs and now the limit is higher.

davidw

2017-09-01 11:06:07

Aha. I hope Brett Glass has experienced some relief from his demons.

enoss

2017-09-01 11:06:13

and, for context, 100k subs is $50-100m in revenue

dangillmor

2017-09-01 11:06:20

@davidw unlikely

dymaxion

2017-09-01 11:06:23

@evangreer They've done equivalent things in so many other ways, and they always make the most money after losing.

maljay

2017-09-01 11:06:37

The people who get to impose their metaphors on the culture get to define what we consider to be true. - Lakoff & Johnson

jerrym

2017-09-01 11:06:47

even at our lowest levels of support (usually $1/mo), all support for our Patreon campaigns is extremely welcome. If you like what we do, say so this way, too. I'll put three links here.

christophermitchell

2017-09-01 11:06:49

Some of these ISPs think they cannot even do local caching from Netflix. Which is bullshit and obvious to anyone following it. But local firms are often not following what happens in DC. They are focused on their businesses.

jerrym

2017-09-01 11:07:09

Susie: https://www.patreon.com/susie

Susie Cagle is creating illustrated journalism | Patreon
Become a patron of Susie Cagle today: Read 22 posts by Susie Cagle and get access to exclusive content and experiences on the world’s largest membership platform for artists and creators.

enoss

2017-09-01 11:07:12

caching = death panels

evangreer

2017-09-01 11:07:13

The legislative fight is going to go back to Matt's point about definitions. It will likely include strong no blocking rules, but it hinge on how it defines "paid prioritization" and whether there is a general conduct rule. Essentially any good legislation that we should support should use the FCC rules as a floor, not a ceiling

jerrym

2017-09-01 11:07:23

Ella: https://www.patreon.com/Dymaxion

Eleanor Saitta is creating ways to see how systems fail | Patreon
Become a patron of Eleanor Saitta today: Read 17 posts by Eleanor Saitta and get access to exclusive content and experiences on the world’s largest membership platform for artists and creators.

jerrym

2017-09-01 11:07:26

and me: https://www.patreon.com/whatifwetrustedyou

Jerry Michalski is creating a way forward | Patreon
Become a patron of Jerry Michalski today: Read 10 posts by Jerry Michalski and get access to exclusive content and experiences on the world’s largest membership platform for artists and creators.

evangreer

2017-09-01 11:07:51

@dymaxion oh believe me i know -- i have no love for the party -- i'm just saying on this specific issue i think their hesitance to engage in legislation is more about politics than money

dymaxion

2017-09-01 11:08:27

Yeah, I don't have data there

christophermitchell

2017-09-01 11:08:56

I don't believe the FCC adding cost to Comcast is significant in any way. To smaller firms, maybe.

davidw

2017-09-01 11:08:59

Costs get passed on but so does value.

dangillmor

2017-09-01 11:09:20

Glad to be a patron of @susie, @dymaxion, and @jerrym on Patreon...

christophermitchell

2017-09-01 11:09:39

Comcast wants to make the rules, which is what monopolists want to do.

christophermitchell

2017-09-01 11:10:45

From what I understand, there is no precedent for FCC reversing a forbearance decision in the way that SOB is describing. (Doesn't mean he is wrong)

evangreer

2017-09-01 11:11:33

i feel like @enoss should get a complimentary drink because he really didn't want to talk net neutrality, here we are 🙂 🍻

davidw

2017-09-01 11:12:01

@christophermitchell , we are in an unprecedented era. OTOH, I don’t know the alternatives.

enoss

2017-09-01 11:12:48

@evangreer all I have to do is operate in a net neutrality-friendly way. then leave the hand waving to everyone else

jerrym

2017-09-01 11:12:55

Barbara: common carriage goes back 100s of years. it describes the functionality of carrying something from A to B

davidw

2017-09-01 11:13:11

My attempt to explain common carriage to laypeople, relying ultra-heavily on interviewing Barbara: https://ting.com/blog/getting-straight-about-common-carriers-and-title-ii/

Getting straight about common carriers and Title II
Open Access is a section of the Ting blog dedicated to discussions about the open Internet, net neutrality and other important online topics. If you’re already convinced that Internet access should be classified under Title II, Tumblr has a great grassroots campaign on the go. Read on for all the gory details on Title II, … Continue reading Getting straight about common carriers and Title II

enoss

2017-09-01 11:13:12

it is such a simple way to deal with it and I like to keep things simple. I am a simple guy!

jerrym

2017-09-01 11:13:13

utility law is located in states, and is completely different

jerrym

2017-09-01 11:13:30

link to the paper Barbara just cited?

evangreer

2017-09-01 11:14:10

Best #CommonCarrier joke ever? https://twitter.com/edwyattdc/status/531895045935620096

His driveway blocked this morning by #NetNeutrality protestors, @TomWheelerFCC took the Metro to work today. #CommonCarrier

sob

2017-09-01 11:14:46

`re reversing forbearance - a body that makes a decision has the power to reverse the decision

christophermitchell

2017-09-01 11:14:55

@evangreer sweet - joke time... I'd tell you the UDP joke but I'm not sure you would get it.

christophermitchell

2017-09-01 11:15:46

@sob yes - they have the authority. My understanding is that is unprecedented and would be a slog. Again, you are right but I'm trying to add some context and probability.

christophermitchell

2017-09-01 11:17:23

I was worried Barb had chilled out in recent years. Always love the passion she brings. Need more passion (and the ability to disagree even with lots of passion).

sob

2017-09-01 11:17:32

no doubt its would be unprecedented, but this seems to be a era of unprecedented things 😞

christophermitchell

2017-09-01 11:18:38

@sob - if Title II didn't give god-like powers, wouldn't Title II be appropriate in some ways because what we want is infrastructure owners to move bits fundamentally?

davidw

2017-09-01 11:20:02

FCC’s post about the Title II NPRM (I think):

https://www.fcc.gov/restoring-internet-freedom

Restoring Internet Freedom
The FCC has proposed to return the U.S. to the bipartisan, light-touch regulatory framework under which a free and open Internet flourished for almost 20 years. The FCC's May 2017 proposal to roll back the prior Administration's heavy-handed Internet regulation strives to advance the FCC's critical work to promote broadband deployment in rural America and infrastructure investment throughout the nation, to brighten the future of innovation both within networks and at their edge, and to close the digital divide.

evangreer

2017-09-01 11:20:11

I would argue that it's definitely a legal battle but it's also a political, social, and cultural battle. The fact that roughly twice as many people know what net neutrality is now than in 2014 matters.

sob

2017-09-01 11:20:12

what I tried to say is that the set of things the old FCC said they would apply was fine but the real worry is about the unused power - from a future FCC or from the courts

christophermitchell

2017-09-01 11:20:33

@sob - you did say that but thanks for clarifying again.

christophermitchell

2017-09-01 11:22:03

@evangreer Yes - and far more than twice as many people.

maljay

2017-09-01 11:22:51

http://repository.cmu.edu/epp/164/

"The Telecom Act of 1996 Requires the FCC to Classify Commercial Intern" by Barbara Cherry and Jon M. Peha
Thousands of papers and comments have been written about what Open Internet policies would best serve the public interest, and thousands more have been written about whether better Open Internet policies could be supported by calling Internet access a telecommunications service under Title II of the Communications Act or an information service. Even the authors of this comment have written about these topics.123 However, this particular comment will address neither of these topics. Instead, it will consider only whether or not commercial Internet access is or is not a telecommunications service under current law. Although many issues are delegated to the FCC as an expert agency, the FCC is still required to follow the laws passed by Congress and signed by the President, and the FCC’s discretion has bounds. In this matter, we find that the Communications Act of 1934 as modified by the Telecommunications Act requires the FCC to define commercial Internet access as a telecommunications service. Opinions will differ as to whether this is a good or bad result for the future of the Internet, but this question is outside the scope of this comment.

christophermitchell

2017-09-01 11:23:06

If there is significant decline in investment, multiple public firms should be on the hook for lying to investors - they have told investors in investor calls that they are not changing their investment plans.

maljay

2017-09-01 11:23:24

@jerrym I just shared their paper

jerrym

2017-09-01 11:23:31

perfect, thank you!!

christophermitchell

2017-09-01 11:24:34

How excited is Rick to be in the audience for one of these grillings??

christophermitchell

2017-09-01 11:24:46

Usually he has been up there.

davidw

2017-09-01 11:26:03

COMCAST REPORTS 2ND QUARTER 2017 RESULTS
Consolidated 2nd Quarter 2017 Highlights:

Consolidated Revenue Increased 9.8%; Net Income Attributable to Comcast Increased 23.9%; Adjusted EBITDA Increased 10.0%
Net Cash Provided by Operating Activities was $5.2 Billion; Free Cash Flow was $2.2 Billion
Earnings per Share Increased 26.8% to $0.52
Dividends Paid Totaled $747 Million and Share Repurchases were $1.4 Billion
Cable Communications 2nd Quarter 2017 Highlights:

Cable Communications Revenue Increased 5.5% and Adjusted EBITDA Increased 5.4%
Customer Relationships Increased by 114,000; Total Revenue per Customer Relationship Increased 2.2%
High-Speed Internet Residential Revenue Increased 9.2%; Total Customers Increased by 175,000
Video Residential Revenue Increased 3.9% and 55% of Residential Video Customers Now Have X1; Total Customer Net Losses were 34,000
Business Services Revenue Increased 12.6%, Over $6.0 Billion in Annualized Revenue

davidw

2017-09-01 11:26:13

http://www.cmcsa.com/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=1034647

evangreer

2017-09-01 11:26:21

💸

christophermitchell

2017-09-01 11:26:31

https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/05/title-ii-hasnt-hurt-network-investment-according-to-the-isps-themselves/

Title II hasn’t hurt network investment, according to the ISPs themselves
ISPs continue to invest and tell investors that net neutrality hasn't hurt them.

christophermitchell

2017-09-01 11:27:08

We did settle it!

evangreer

2017-09-01 11:27:24

If ISPs are strapped for cash they could spend a little less on lobbying maybe? http://bgr.com/2017/07/12/net-neutrality-explained-internet-day-of-action-july-12/

Never forget how much money Comcast, Verizon and AT&T spent to crush net neutrality
For the last year, telecoms companies haven’t stopped talking about how much infrastructure investment has been cancelled because of the FCC’s “draconian” new regulations.
Now, that’s bullshit — but you know what probably has got in the way of investment in new broadband infrastructure? The half a billion dollars that Comcast, Verizon, and AT&T have spent lobbying the federal government to kill net neutrality rules.

Don't Miss: This brilliant Apple Watch accessory puts a wireless charger in your pocket
A study by Maplight, spotted by DSLReports, claims that “Comcast, AT&T, Verizon and the National Cable & Telecommunications Association (NCTA) have spent $572 million on attempts to influence the FCC and other government agencies since 2008.” To put that in perspective, that’s more money spent on lobbying than the defense, automotive, or banking industries over the same period. Only the pharmaceutical and oil industries have consistently spent more.
The money is being spent to fight what ISPs see as an existential threat to their business models: net neutrality. The key idea behind net neutrality is that all data travelling over an ISP’s network must be treated the same. It prevents ISPs from blocking or favoring one type of traffic over another, something that’s absolutely critical to the open and fair internet that we enjoy right now.
Internet service providers ensuring a fair and open internet might sound like a no-brainer, but it makes more sense when you consider exactly the kind of companies that are providing your internet. The internet service companies lobbying hardest against net neutrality are also major cable TV providers — and in most cases, also own the networks that produce the content.
Pay TV has been a big profit-driver for years, but a well-documented change in the way people consume their moving pictures (hint: Netflix!) is driving more people to cut the cord than ever. Even though the pay TV companies are slowly changing with the times and offering streaming TV services, a completely fair and open internet actually runs counter to their interests.
As it stands currently with cable TV, most consumers don’t have a choice. If you want a cable TV package, you buy it from whichever provider offers in your network. The majority of customers can’t shop around, simply because they don’t have any options.
Those regional monopolies (and associated lack of competition) are threatened by streaming TV services. The beauty of an internet-delivered TV package is that (in theory!) it works anywhere in the country. YouTube and Netflix simply don’t have regional blackouts, and the big telecoms companies are worried that the same thing is about to happen to pay TV.
So, it stands to reason that they’d use the last weapon at their disposal to fight back against internet streaming plans: control of the internet itself. Right now, the abuse of power is subtle — things like Verizon and AT&T not counting data used to stream their own TV plans against the cap. In the future, it could be far more blatant: imagine your ISP charging you extra per month to access Netflix and YouTube.
That’s the nightmare that the internet is holding a day of protest against today. That’s the future that ISPs have invested half a billion dollars to build. You pick the side.

christophermitchell

2017-09-01 11:28:23

Difference between "adopting" rules and being able to enforce them in a court of law!

christophermitchell

2017-09-01 11:29:01

Is this how we want to end this BH??

davidw

2017-09-01 11:29:48

Is this how we want to end this Republic? — FTFY

christophermitchell

2017-09-01 11:29:52

Looking around and seeing a lot of body language that people are done with NN today. I could be wrong.

maljay

2017-09-01 11:29:53

No we want to end with a funny image from you.

christophermitchell

2017-09-01 11:30:03

Shit

jerrym

2017-09-01 11:30:09

pressure's on...

christophermitchell

2017-09-01 11:30:40

@christophermitchell uploaded a file:

Not funny but I love it.

cayden

2017-09-01 11:31:00

that's my serious face

davidw

2017-09-01 11:32:16

Photoshop out the bottle and you’ve got your book flap photograph, @cayden

rickw

2017-09-01 11:32:30

Barbara's point about the primacy of common carriage is crucial To be a common carrier is not all onerous duties -- at the state level, such entities (sometimes termed utilities) receive tangible benefits, such as access to rights of way, eminent domain, and access to subsidies. Cable companies received similar favorable treatment, but under different laws and not as common carriers. My suggestion is that today we (briefly) discuss the reasonable tradeoffs we should want between rights and responsibilities, as providers of communications and information infrastructure.

cayden

2017-09-01 11:33:04

@davidw you mean you don't like my goofy laser background shot? :upside_down_face:

davidw

2017-09-01 11:33:39

Of course I do! But book jacket photos have their own rhetoric.

lev.gonick

2017-09-01 11:33:52

Wow! We're approaching 10,000 messages at BH2017. That's impressive. Get your best shots in now 😉

dsearls

2017-09-01 11:34:04

Rick, maybe you need to stand up and lead that brief discussion.

rickw

2017-09-01 11:34:09

Unfortunately we can't avoid the statutory mess in the US, but we can draw up a short list of the rights and responsibilities we want to expect from our infrastructure providers.

lev.gonick

2017-09-01 11:34:27

Looks like we should recommend a NN lunch table for those interested .... 😉

hermanw

2017-09-01 11:34:37

Is it a tactics issue, or strategic issue, or both?

davidw

2017-09-01 11:35:40

Wouldn’t this be so much simpler if we delaminated the ISPs?

maljay

2017-09-01 11:35:41

@maljay uploaded a file:

@evangreer Good reminder.

jamesvasile

2017-09-01 11:35:59

@davidw "delaminated"?

dsearls

2017-09-01 11:36:04

Speaking as a muggle, herman, (I’m not an engineer or a lawyer), think the answer is both.

anne_schwieger

2017-09-01 11:36:25

A video about why City of Boston cares about net neutrality and is of the mind that Title II must stay in place:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LcGEaCTvBg

Net Neutrality 101

davidw

2017-09-01 11:36:33

delaminate = separate the layers = structural separation

sob

2017-09-01 11:37:02

like Canada did

anne_schwieger

2017-09-01 11:38:01

many local govts care about Title II: http://www.govtech.com/dc/articles/50-Cities-and-Counties-Participate-in-Net-Neutrality-Day-of-Action.html

50 Cities and Counties Participate in Net Neutrality Day of Action
In an organized event to protest the proposed change by the FCC to eliminate protections for net neutrality, cities and counties have joined together to pen a letter to chairman Ajit Pai.

hermanw

2017-09-01 11:38:52

@dsearls guess so, makes it extra complex to talk open about it

dsearls

2017-09-01 11:40:20

@hermanw, complex as it is, it’s fucking amazing what a great group @davidi has put in this room. I hope we take a lot of this good shit we’re hearing out in to the world. (With no mention of BH, of course.)

hermanw

2017-09-01 11:40:23

muggle in dutch = "dreuzel"

jamesvasile

2017-09-01 11:40:35

All of that will come up. It's hard to see how it will matter.

christophermitchell

2017-09-01 11:41:28

I greatly appreciate @jlivingood taking the stage to give Comcast's perspective. Takes courage in this room and respect. Should be mutual.

enoss

2017-09-01 11:41:44

it is clear to me that in terms of dealing with national governments, I have adopted @wa8dzp 's view and I /we just walkaway

jamesvasile

2017-09-01 11:41:47

He's doing a good job of it too.

hermanw

2017-09-01 11:41:54

Indeed, amazing to see

sob

2017-09-01 11:42:36

there is nothing Jason has said that this room should disagree with (imo)

christophermitchell

2017-09-01 11:43:52

@christophermitchell uploaded a file:

My favorite 2016 meme, FWIW

dsearls

2017-09-01 11:44:08

Speaking of infrastructure, a perhaps interesting fact: Norway has no more AM or FM radio. There is digital radio, but it’s a kind that only works there. If you want radio, you’ll need a DAB or DAB+ receiver (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_audio_broadcasting). Or just to tune in on the Net, if the station has a stream.

Digital audio broadcasting
Digital audio broadcasting (DAB) is a digital radio standard for broadcasting digital audio radio services, used in countries across Europe, the Middle East and Asia Pacific.
The DAB standard was initiated as a European research project in the 1980s. The Norwegian Broadcasting Corporation (NRK) launched the first DAB channel in the world on 1 June 1995 (NRK Klassisk), and the BBC and Swedish Radio (SR) launched their first DAB digital radio broadcasts in September 1995. DAB receivers have been available in many countries since the end of the 1990s.
DAB is more efficient in its use of spectrum than analogue FM radio, and thus may offer more radio services for the same given bandwidth. DAB is more robust with regard to noise and multipath fading for mobile listening, since DAB reception quality first degrades rapidly when the signal strength falls below a critical threshold, whereas FM reception quality degrades slowly with the decreasing signal.
The original version of DAB used the MP2 audio codec. An upgraded version of the system was released in February 2007, called DAB+, which uses the HE-AAC v2 audio codec. DAB is not forward compatible with DAB+, which means that DAB-only receivers are not able to receive DAB+ broadcasts. However, broadcasters can mix DAB and DAB+ programs inside the same transmission and so make a progressive transition to DAB+. DAB+ is approximately twice as efficient as DAB, and more robust.
In spectrum management, the bands that are allocated for public DAB services, are abbreviated with T-DAB, where the "T" stands for terrestrial.
As of 2017, 38 countries are running DAB services. The majority of these services are using DAB+, with only Ireland, Denmark, UK, New Zealand, Romania and Brunei still using a significant number of DAB services. See Countries using DAB/DMB. In many countries, it is expected that existing FM services will switch over to DAB+. Norway was the first country to announce national FM radio analog switchoff starting from 2017.

dymaxion

2017-09-01 11:44:16

@enoss There are ways that I'm with you, but there are also ways that when that happens with critical infrastructure and there's nowhere else to walk to, real problems happen. The only way to walk away from climate change is with a .45.

jamesvasile

2017-09-01 11:44:22

@enoss also runs an MVNO, so he sits on both sides of that model

davidw

2017-09-01 11:44:22

@sob, I agree in general but I disagree with Jason’s assumption that Comcast’s discomfort with being regulated matters to the issue.

jamesvasile

2017-09-01 11:45:26

@dangillmor I wouldn't want to choose from a menu of providers, each with a confusing set of packages of websites I can access.

hermanw

2017-09-01 11:46:34

At the time ISP started the big money was in TV subcriptions, and voice. TV was defactor tied to an infrastructure, voice was but got some competition. The world has changed: data/Internet access is going the be the thing that pays the bills

evangreer

2017-09-01 11:47:43

🦄

christophermitchell

2017-09-01 11:47:52

+1 Elliot!

evangreer

2017-09-01 11:48:15

Elliot has been working in the biz since he was 14?

evangreer

2017-09-01 11:48:27

dang

dsearls

2017-09-01 11:53:37

So now only people in the room with tethering are here?

hmhgoldstone

2017-09-01 11:54:15

That's exactly what we do with TV/video content. It may not be fun, but few see it as an existential problem. While I think everyone in this room would put internet access in a different category, I'm not so sure a majority of internet users (a.k.a. the public) would immediately see the difference.

@dangillmor I wouldn't want to choose from a menu of providers, each with a confusing set of packages of websites I can access.

hermanw

2017-09-01 11:54:26

By far the biggest investment in a total global network is in the many tails, 2/3. Goes against intuition.

hermanw

2017-09-01 11:54:31

In Europe the move is backwards, out of fear that US and others (Carlos Slim) buy telco's.

christophermitchell

2017-09-01 11:54:34

@christophermitchell uploaded a file:

I have no doubt...

hermanw

2017-09-01 11:54:51

Backwards = less seperation, less openness

evangreer

2017-09-01 11:55:43

re: Blackburn, here's the result of one of FFTF's latest crowdfunding projects https://www.fightforthefuture.org/news/2017-05-03-crowdfunded-billboards-appear-in-districts-of/

Crowdfunded billboards appear in districts of lawmakers who voted to gut Internet privacy and allow ISPs to sell consumer data
Fight for the Future is dedicated to protecting and expanding the Internet's transformative power in our lives by creating civic campaigns that are engaging for millions of people.

evangreer

2017-09-01 11:56:08

wrong link. https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/08/pro-net-neutrality-billboards-shame-lawmakers-who-want-to-repeal-rules/

GOP lawmakers shamed on billboards for trying to repeal net neutrality rules
Republicans want a "slower, censored, and more expensive Internet," group says.

evangreer

2017-09-01 11:56:32

@evangreer uploaded a file:

Screen Shot 2017-09-01 at 11.56.52 AM.png

evangreer

2017-09-01 11:57:11

For real @jlivingood thank you. It's good to remember that all institutions are made up of people, and you're good people 🙂

evangreer

2017-09-01 11:57:39

👏

rickw

2017-09-01 11:57:46

Yes, thanks Jason.

enoss

2017-09-01 11:57:47

@dymaxion I am in favour of open infrastructure. it is silly that it is not everywhere. I am just playing the game as it is, accepting I can't change it, and treating people well. every customer we have is one they don't!

hermanw

2017-09-01 11:58:10

The big issue (looking from the view of an integrated company) with separating is the huuuuuuge cashflow from the loopco that you cannot use for applications and the like. Look at the skewed ratio at BT, where you see the numbers separated.

enoss

2017-09-01 11:58:20

I tell every mayor I meet (and I meet lots now) that they are silly to let me build their fiber and that they should do it themselves

christophermitchell

2017-09-01 11:58:28

@christophermitchell uploaded a file:

Last one

hermanw

2017-09-01 11:58:52

That is why they resist. Same with energy companies: totally different risk profile.

hermanw

2017-09-01 11:59:36

I am in favor of sepration, but it is wise to understand the deep reasons for behaviours.

hermanw

2017-09-01 11:59:41

separation

dymaxion

2017-09-01 12:03:31

If only America still had an appetite for democracy, let alone a thirst.

jerrym

2017-09-01 12:05:27

so interesting that emotions are running higher in the last hour of Bighook. did we sit on these topics and they're burbling out now? did it take us this long to warm up? are we ignoring big issues? thoughts?

christophermitchell

2017-09-01 12:06:22

Since we have spent a lot of time talking about the problems of this country, I wanted to say that I fucking love it. It may have lots of warts, but I have lived outside the US for a total of maybe 7-8 months of my life in a variety of places and I always want to come back. In no way will I let any of the nazis, misogynists, etc drive me from it.

hmhgoldstone

2017-09-01 12:07:09

Thank you, everyone, for a wonderful BH! Sorry to ghost, but duty calls.

jerrym

2017-09-01 12:07:48

Leonard Cohen's Democracy (lyrics): https://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/leonardcohen/democracy.html

evangreer

2017-09-01 13:38:24

@evangreer uploaded a file:

@channel here is the contact info for the musicians! Please support them, book them for your events and parties and attend their concerts! More of us could stand to follow David's great example of including music in events like these. It makes such a difference. ❤

wseltzer

2017-09-01 14:01:48

Sorry i had to run early, now on an airplane already. Great conversations!

jerrym

2017-09-01 14:01:59

happy trails, Wendy!

jlivingood

2017-09-01 14:45:14

Thanks all for listening to me today and not holding back tough questions.

jlivingood

2017-09-01 14:46:11

I'm at the airport now and one of the nuances in the debate over capex is around the notion of capital intensity. You may or may not agree, which is fine, but feel free to see http://corporate.comcast.com/comcast-voices/how-to-keep-a-free-and-open-internet-comcasts-fcc-comments for details and links.

How to Keep a Free and Open Internet: Comcast’s FCC Comments
Today, Comcast filed comments in the FCC’s proceeding to restore, protect, and maintain a free and open Internet.

jlivingood

2017-09-01 14:47:56

ALSO, I am happy to talk to and work with anyone on language they put together or to answer questions - with my company hat on or off. I've done so before on other issues (for example to help stop SOPA/PIPA legislation). And to the point made by @rickw if there is a future role for a group like BITAG to play in defining some of the technical contours of this, let me know.

jlivingood

2017-09-01 14:49:24

Lastly, thanks @cherryb for your tough questions and your passion on this issue. I really do agree that "translators" that can bridge between engineering, legal, and policy are important. That's a role I at least try to play internally and externally, but I'm always learning how to do it more effectively. If you have more ideas here or something potentially actionable by me I'm all ears.

jlivingood

2017-09-01 14:49:48

Thanks also @davidi for a great event - as usual!!

christophermitchell

2017-09-01 18:19:16

Thanks for checking back in Jason.

dsearls

2017-09-01 19:55:49

Back in NYC, after circumnavigating traffic, and continuing BigHook discussion with Sumana en route. Thanks to all, especially David I and crew, for a great one. (More pix coming shortly.)

brewsterkahle

2017-09-02 10:52:10

fyi: more on lyft shuttle: https://qz.com/1027662/lyft-explains-why-shuttle-its-most-bus-like-service-is-not-in-fact-a-bus/

Lyft explains why Shuttle, its most bus-like service, is not, in fact, a bus
The new service Lyft is testing in Chicago and San Francisco is unlike anything the company has tried before. It can still be hailed on-demand at the touch of a button and it groups people into cars along common travel routes. But the new service doesn’t come to your door. It costs $3 to $4 per ride, and it picks up and drops off at the same stops every day.
Lyft calls it Shuttle. The internet calls it a bus.

this is a bus. Lyft invented a bus. Lyft shuttle is a bus.
— Jules N. Binoculars (@surfbordt) June 19, 2017

While Uber made its name with private rides, Lyft has always had one eye on mass transportation. Years before they started Lyft, co-founders Logan Green and John Zimmer built Zimride, a carpooling service for undergraduates. They sold Zimride to rental car company Enterprise for an undisclosed amount in July 2013, around the same time that Lyft, still sporting pink mustaches on every car, celebrated its first birthday.
Quartz spoke to Lyft director of transportation Emily Castor this week about its work on Shuttle and public transit in general. We didn’t hesitate to ask the tough question: Is Lyft Shuttle a bus? The following interview has been condensed and edited for clarity.
Quartz: Lyft has experimented with a bunch of different pooled or transit-like products. What was the predecessor to Shuttle?
Current Lyft shuttle routes in Chicago. (Lyft)Castor: This is quite different, I guess, than anything else we’ve done. You could certainly say that it descended from Lyft Line, which we continue to operate.1 You might also be thinking of Lyft Carpool, which was quite different.2 There’s always experimentation happening at Lyft with different flavors of ways to match people up with rides. Carpool was more focused on commuters and casual carpooling drivers, and Lyft Shuttle is more similar to Lyft Line.
Shuttle is really motivated by the desire to create the most streamlined efficient commute experience possible and to attract more people to carpool on their way to work. If you look at commuting in this country right now, it’s a pretty sad picture. Seventy-six percent of people drive to work alone. Something is fundamentally broken in that system. A big part of that is the fact that transit has had a very limited set of tools for a long time. You either had 40-foot buses or you had trains, or a couple variations on those. But there were certain environments where neither of those was going to be able to deliver the convenience and the travel time that people wanted, and so you end up with the vast majority of American commuters opting out of public transit.
Shuttle was skewered on social media for being a bus. Why don’t you consider it one?
What we’re seeing right now is that there’s an emergence of a huge variety of microtransit services that are different ways of creating high-occupancy rides. Chariot, Via3—I don’t want to name-drop a lot of other brands—there’s an explosion of a variety of services that are using their creativity and the new potential that’s created by smartphones and GPS and finding ways to match people up with different types of vehicles on different types of service delivery patterns to try to attract marketshare away from people who own their own cars.
These are not heavy-duty vehicles. They’re standard passenger cars that people own that are already operating on the Lyft platform.4 That means they’re not giving Shuttle rides unless there is demand for one, which I think is one of the key features of Shuttle. One of the big problems that transit services face is that it’s really expensive for them to just have a driver running a route all the time, especially if they don’t have enough riders to fill up that bus. It greatly improves the financial viability of offering that service if you only have to offer it when somebody needs it. That’s how Shuttle operates. It’s very efficient in only providing service when it’s required.
Do you see yourselves as a complement to public transit?
Absolutely. In some cases, a part of public transit. We want to have an open dialogue with those transit agencies so that we know where we can be the most helpful. For example, if you look at the Shuttle routes in Chicago, you’ll see there’s a route that goes down through Brighton Park, which is a low-income, underserved community that actually lacks a good transit connection into downtown, where most of the jobs are. Shuttle is really a product that’s allowing us to test out where Lyft can be the most helpful. We felt that was an area where people do need help with improving mobility access.
It’s frankly happening all over the country. In the last couple of years, this conversation has developed very very quickly. As soon as Lyft started to become a permanent fixture of the transportation ecosystems in these places, I started to have conversations with transit agencies and it very quickly turned into this kind of creative brainstorming about how can we actually use these new products to become part of the way the transit agencies operate, and tackle some of those really hard use-cases that they haven’t been able to do in the past.
Paratransit is a service that transit agencies are mandated to provide to individuals with disabilities. It’s very challenging, and yet those communities are the ones in the greatest need of mobility access. Transit agencies have had a difficult time providing that on a cost-effective basis in the past. It can be $60 a ride, per person. Those are prime categories of transit service where there is a shared interest both from the riders, who depend on that service, and from the transit agencies, who need to find a more sustainable way of offering that service and to actually expand the amount of service that they provide, to partner with a system like Lyft.
Do you feel like Lyft has an advantage in talking to cities over Uber because you’ve positioned yourselves as the friendlier, more collaborative of the two big companies?
Lyft’s culture and our values have always been a key part of our success, and that’s true now more than ever.
Read next: Why it matters that Uber and Lyft are becoming more like public transit

desiree

2017-09-02 12:57:34

had a fab bighook… feel i have to catch up with slacking on slack 😉 enjoy the game

desiree

2017-09-02 12:57:42

http://ncase.me/trust/

The Evolution of Trust
an interactive guide to the game theory of why & how we trust each other

evangreer

2017-09-07 15:13:10

Thanks to BigHookers for giving me the kick in the butt I needed to finally create a Patreon! ❤ https://www.patreon.com/evangreer

Evan Greer is creating music, writing, and activism | Patreon
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